Golden Horde is a golden PITA...

[Chromium]

I decided to have a Singleplayer HRE marathon over the weekend. I used BGR2 as I didn't want a tough game; I didn't want a BGR4/5 grinding month-long slog. Params were at M/VH Late campaign & I was using my trusty German legions. By Saturday morning, I was king in Europe; the pope don't like me, no one, except Russia & Aragon- really liked me but I was happy & rich.

Then the %$%^Mongols laid siege on Constantinople.

While I have fought Mongol stack spams on SS before (as ERE), I'd thought that I was finding it tough only because of VH/Vh AI bonuses & BGR4. Instead, I had Batu, Subutai, Mamgai & what not crawling over Thracia, Kiev etc. Toggle_fow &...you know the story.

I've been fending off those steppe-Nazis for nearly two days & I'm tired. I destroy one army, two more take its place; I give Russia a city, they lose two; I gave the Pope Africa; within 10 turns he's back outside Rome & the Mongols are battering at that town in Morocco.

As of now, we're fighting back & forth across Ryazan, Dardanelles & Gaza & I'm raiding the Levant & Anatolia every 10 turns just to keep them off-balance. I've already lost two Emperors to them & sacrificed nearly 10 full-stacks. Armies & Money are not a problem (My Prince just conquered England 5 turns back, I'm the only Catholic left apart from Norway & Aragon & I have nearly 30 full-stacks sitting around in Europe) but the game's strenuous, boring & I'm not really enjoying it at all.

I have some questions:

1- How do you guys deal with the Mongols? Please don't say you fight them; that's good the first five-six times- then it's simply frustrating!
2- Is there any submod that weakens them? Does the difficulty change at, say, Easy? I remember playing at medium in SS6.1 meant the Ottomans raised only one stack for every ten they raised at VH.
3- Why are their Horse archers so powerful? The Mongols' strength lay in logistics & charges, not missile cavalry! The Mamluks ought to be able to defeat them handily & they'r already dead in my game!
4- Many people are posted pretty much the same thing I have; in their case, the Mongols ran out of steam near Kiev. Then, why are they still throwing full stacks at me?

[Larkin]

I learn how to fight them, and hold them in key locations with forts and well defended cities.

Once you kill the stacks they crumble because their economy collapses and they can't defend their captured cities. You have to out industry them, send your own stacks in, and then you can steamroll their captured lands.

Then the Timurids come and you have to do it again but harder cause elephants and cannons.

But surely it's better than just beating everyone?

[Andytheplatypus]

Frankly the mongols are over powered. All of their units are over powered and they get a huge amount, plus tons of reinforcements. Their only weakness is the lack of money.

There is no sub mod that I know of that reduces their strength.

You could try and assassinate all of their family members instead of fighting all of their armies.

[Larkin]

They are fightable though, if you know how to kill their armies. Just have to do it again and again is all. I've never really had a problem with them, even as the Turks. Never lost more than 10 settlements to them.

Late era Khwarezmian however is not something I'd like to try.

You could also go into the EDU and tone down their units, but it's the fact they're all gold experience that makes them so tough.

But it's pretty accurate, the Mongols steamrolled their way to Kiev in real life and would have done a lot more if Genghis didn't turn them around and then die. Under his son they got into freaking Poland, and were only just defeated by a HRE, Poland, Hungary alliance. Have you played a SS game where the Mongols get all the way to Poland? I sure haven't. And if they go to the Middle East they usually are beaten back by the Fatimids eventually.

I think it's tough, but pretty accurately tough.

I'd like to see what would happen with more factions in the east though, like Georgia and Cilicia and another Muslim faction... if only there was some up and coming submod that had all that, Andy...

[Andytheplatypus]

The mongols were so successful because of their tactics and strategy, not because their soldiers did more damage and had more armor then everyone else. They also did not have superior numbers then everyone else they fought. That is what bothers me about mongols in 6.4

Yes in upcoming versions of titanium that feature the mongols I will make sure to balance them, but that is a ways off.

[Larkin]

The mongols were so successful because of their tactics and strategy, not because their soldiers did more damage and had more armor then everyone else. They also did not have superior numbers then everyone else they fought. That is what bothers me about mongols in 6.4

Yes in upcoming versions of titanium that feature the mongols I will make sure to balance them, but that is a ways off.

True, but I think you'd really struggle to find a way to represent their strength without a lot of stacks and better quality troops. It's not like you could have an AI that was vastly superior to the AI for the rest of them. Unless you could somehow have a Very Hard AI for Mongols and not for anyone else.

Though not all Mongol battles were like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Kalka_River

Indeed, a lot of the time the Mongols had greater numerical strength. Often their armies would split off and head in different directions, and still win. I believe once, Subutai led two armies over 500km apart to victory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...%B6se_Da%C4%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

They were only really defeated with even numbers once.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut

These two articles are pretty interesting and worth reading just to gain more understanding of the level of Mongol incursion into the West. Imagine if there had not been civil war!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_conquests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Europe

[Navajo Joe]

When I played as Crusader States, I beat the Mongols by calling a Crusade against Urgench on two occasions, the Crusader armies ground them down, then I moved my stacks and murdered them

[Mihajlo]

Mongol stack spamming in SS represent mongols well, how big PITA they wore
(since AI cant compete with human player in tactics I think it is balanced well, on the only way it could... my 2 cents anyway)

You actualy have only 3 choices with mongols, I combine them all:
- Just make a stand and fight, I know boring, but that is how it is (try to AR some of the battles), assassinate family members
- Call crusade/jihad on them, abuse movement bonuses, join few stacks and raid/destroy strategic towns, it will significantly slow them and undermined their rampage..
- Build forts on choke points, pack them with elite units and take down some of their armies. Also that will slow them a lot. (this one is actualy of most importance when you play with khwarezmian or ukraine! Slowing them as a neighbor faction is your 1.objective.)

As you can see not much of a difference, yo have to fight...
Also they did rely on HA a lot, hence the first time fatimids catch them on fight in melee, they crush entire army....

(pack many stacks with spear units and AR, best bet if you want to avoid a lot of battles)

Good luck!

[Rushwithoutmercy]

Holy Order Knights.Need I say more?

[temujin388tn]

1- How do you guys deal with the Mongols? Please don't say you fight them; that's good the first five-six times- then it's simply frustrating!

I played late era Khwarezmian, Medium/Medium, and I have just destroyed the Mongols at turn 105. In my campaign, they stopped spawning armies at turn 50, so I could battle them out. I also give the Fatimids some cities, so they have war against the Mongols.

Btw, when will the Timurids come?

[Henry X]

Too soon.

[Basileus of Byzantium]

If you wanna weaken their stats you could always go and edit the export_descr_unit text file. In fact if you wanna change the experience their stacks get you can edit some text files in the campaign folder of SS but I forgot which text file. I don't have SS installed as of now so I can't really look.

[Point Blank]

In most of my games they absorb the Cumans and Kwarezmians, push hard into Novgorod, Turks and Fatamids, then start to slow down, have territories rebel etc. Avoid field battles with them if possible.

[Shaun]

If you play as the Mongols, do you still get the spawned armies? Or are you stuck with what you get at the beginning?