Roman Cataphracts?

[HuangCaesar]

Do you think Roman cataphracts will or should be in the vanilla game? Or should be in an expansion?( like Rome II: Barbarian Invasion, in the Late Empire). Historically Rome did experiment with Cataphracts after the Battle of Cahrae,(Cassius Longinus had units of them in Syria a believe) They started field them in the Trajan era, Hadrian was recorded to have made his own units from fighting the Sarmatians. So as Marcus Aurelius. (although Cataphracts were much more widespread use in Gallinus and Julian's time)That was the same time as the typical Lorica Segmentata Legions, not late empire. Although this game probally ends at late-Augustus era, the invasions of Dacia could be earlier(like Caesar planned) and I hope Rome could get Cataphracts earlier.

[wulfgar610]

The Romans seem to have drawn their cataphracts from people like Sarmation nobles who's native armor was generally made from non metal scale.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Rome didn't used own Catapracts until the very late antiquity. Those you reffer are vasalltroops from clientel kingdomes like Armenia etc. The later roman cataphract is based on the Sassanid and Sarmartian ones and has little to do with the Cataphracts 200 BC.

[HuangCaesar]

Rome didn't used own Catapracts until the very late antiquity. Those you reffer are vasalltroops from clientel kingdomes like Armenia etc. The later roman cataphract is based on the Sassanid and Sarmartian ones and has little to do with the Cataphracts 200 BC.

200 BC??? That was Punic War time. You mean 200 AD??? Actually the Romans at time created standing units not vassal states of Cataphracts stationed along the danube. They were based on Parthian and Sarmatian models after fighting Sarmatian cataphracts during Trajan's Dacian War. So yes they did have cataphract units during the Principate rather than late empire. They saw unrecorded action until the 3rd century crisis.

[LeicsFox]

The Roman army did develop heavily armed cavalry, some of whom were known as cataphracts, but this was in the later Empire.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

With 200 BC i was reffering to the typ of cataphracts existing back than. Invented somewhere between the central asian steppes and han-china and universally used by kingdomes like Armenia, Cappadocia, Parthians etc. However the image of the Cataphracts changed and later when the romans had their own cataphracts in the late antiquity, than it was a copy of the Sassanid design which can be seen on the equipment etc. which is heavily influenced by Sassanid styles.

[andrew881thebest]

Till 3rd century AD they had not a real use of cataphrats. They were widely used in 4th century at adrianopoli 378 ad for example. They survived in eastern empire and last were used in 11th century.

[HuangCaesar]

Till 3rd century AD they had not a real use of cataphrats. They were widely used in 4th century at adrianopoli 378 ad for example. They survived in eastern empire and last were used in 11th century.

Mainly due to the lack of recording, lack of wars and battles. Pitched battles were rare during the Principate. Roman enemies like the Dacians, Parthians, and Jews mostly huddled into their fortresses, like siege of Jersusalem, Masada, Sarmizagathuza, Cteshpion etc. Most battles were not well recorded unlike the ones in the Punic Wars or Caesar's wars. Valens didn't use Cataphracts at Arianople I believe. He used light cavalry that surrounded the Gothic wagons but ran away when the Gothic cavalry came.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

Mainly due to the lack of recording, lack of wars and battles. Pitched battles were rare during the Principate. Roman enemies like the Dacians, Parthians, and Jews mostly huddled into their fortresses, like siege of Jersusalem, Masada, Sarmizagathuza, Cteshpion etc. Most battles were not well recorded unlike the ones in the Punic Wars or Caesar's wars. Valens didn't use Cataphracts at Arianople I believe. He used light cavalry that surrounded the Gothic wagons but ran away when the Gothic cavalry came.

Did you just say the Parthians remained behind their fortress walls and gave Ctesiphon as an example?

Everytime the Romans pillaged Ctesiphon, it was not defended and the battles in context of the mesopotamian campaigns were pitched battles to be exactly, because their was no significant Parthian Army in that area. The main reason why the Romans could travel so deep in to Parthian terretory was because the Parthian royal armies stucked in civil wars in inner iran. Their are offcourse mainfortresses which weren't conquered by the romans like the unconquerable Hatra, but the Parthian forces there were probably minimal. The main force in Hatra were the private army of the local arabic dynasty which was loyal and very close to the Arsacids.

[geala]

I think they should not be in the game. It ends about 30 AD and cataphracts were regularly used by the Romans only from the 2nd c. AD onwards, on a smale scale in addition. BTW why did the use of cataphracts stop in the 11th c. AD as someone wrote? The medieval knights and their Islamic and Byzantine counterparts were by and large nothing else but cataphracts. So their use ended in the 17th c. AD I would say.

[LeicsFox]

Till 3rd century AD they had not a real use of cataphrats. They were widely used in 4th century at adrianopoli 378 ad for example. They survived in eastern empire and last were used in 11th century.

very true, I thought they latest longer in the Byzantine Empire though, beyond the 11th Century anyway.

[wulfgar610]

The "Romans" themselves in the Republican period didn't raise cataphracts, and by end of it all they had become dependent on allies for the bulk of their cavalry . However they would certainly present amongst vassal cultures that used them and that supplied auxiliary troops to the Romans. So in a suitable location cataphracts could be present in a Republican Roman army. With Augustus auxiliary troops become a regular part of the Roman army so in varying amounts cataphracts could be fielded in the early Imperial army even in distant stations, but they would have remained rare. By the 3rd century the use of cavalry was on the increase from the 10% of earlier times to 20% in later times. Cataphracts from were present on many occasions and many stations, with cataphract armor being found in Britain.
But cavalry of any variety was an expensive exercise for a settled people like the Romans. A good cavalry will have at least two mounts per cavalryman and more horses in breeding stations.