A Question About Archers

[Brihentin13]

So, I mainly play as Celtic factions so obviously I don't often have access to the best archers often, however, even when I recruit Cretans they seem annoyingly ineffective. In a frontal volley, damage is mediocre at best and nigh useless against any armored units. Sure, you might say that I juts need to flank with them, in the time that it takes to move these somewhat squishy units around I could have already flanked much more easily with some good tough assault infantry or even cavalry. Mounted archers are much more useful because even if they don't kill too many units, skirmishing cavalry always can be of use in some other way. So am I looking at this all wrong or what?

[Petite Wolf]

Honestly, archers from the front are always ineffective as long as the enemy has armour. Firing at them from the front is just a waste of arrows unless they lack armour, and even then it isn't as effective as flanking. If you do want to use them effectively, you should be flanking with them. Archers - and Slingers as well, by the way - are deadly from the back. Against armoured units they're less effective, of course - unlike Slingers - but still. If you do wish to use them effectively, then either target units that lack armour or learn to flank with them. You'd be amazed at the difference it makes.

[Entropy Judge]

So, I mainly play as Celtic factions so obviously I don't often have access to the best archers often, however, even when I recruit Cretans they seem annoyingly ineffective. In a frontal volley, damage is mediocre at best and nigh useless against any armored units.

There are two problems with using Archers from the front. The first, as you've surmised, is that Armour protects against arrow-fire quite well. The second - less obvious - is that Shield values are doubled against non-Thrown missiles. You really, really don't want to use Archers from the front.

Sure, you might say that I juts need to flank with them, in the time that it takes to move these somewhat squishy units around I could have already flanked much more easily with some good tough assault infantry or even cavalry. Mounted archers are much more useful because even if they don't kill too many units, skirmishing cavalry always can be of use in some other way. So am I looking at this all wrong or what?

I would say that yes, you're looking at it wrong. Archers are not "Kill everything that moves" units; they don't have the ammo or the Attack value to do that. What they do is soften and weaken an enemy, and hopefully draw them out of position. Stick your archers on the flank of your army (Left Flank, if possible) at the start of the battle, when you're setting up, so you don't need to move them so much. Keep them a bit forward of your main line, and get them on top of a hill if you can. Demoralize the enemy through casualties (and Fire, if you feel like it). Pick on the weaker units that don't have Armour or big Shields. If you're going with an Archer-based army, you'll probably be using a Defensive army - let the enemy march across the map and up a steep hill to get to you, while you wait and plink away once he gets into range.

[Boriak]

I put archers on the left flank of my army and put light cavalry behind them. This way they will have the maximum chance of hiting unprotected sides and is a good initial position for a flanking maneouver (that's why they are backed by light cavalry - so they can thwart enemy cavalry). If they get attacked by a slow enemy unit (heavy infantry or heavy cavalry), archers on skirmish mode will retreat as will light cavalry. If pursued by a fast enemy unit, the combined power of archers and light cavalry is usually enough to repel them. In both cases, they get exposed from flanking fire by my main infantry force whose second line always carries javelins and swords.

[Cigol]

I agree.
But anyhow I still think they can be incredibly useful for siege defenses and ambushes. And they're often good at heavily damaging routing units so long as their back is turned to them of course.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Not much to add to the comments above, except to say that altitude is life for archers. The higher they are, the more lethal they are. This applies especially to unarmoured and highly vulnerable horse archers, putting them on a hill extends their range while reducing the enemy's range, the ideal is to be able to shoot at the enemy while the enemy can't shoot back.

Playing as Koinon Hellenon I absolutely depend on my Cretans. They are lethal on a hilltop, especially when they get lots of experience they can kill hundreds of the enemy. Although it helps a bit that I've reduced the shield value of phalangites from 5 to 3 to make them a bit more vulnerable to missile fire.

[Petite Wolf]

Cretan Archers are amazing to have as the KH. Even before I can recruit them, if I'm building an army I'll get some mercenary ones just because they're so good. They are so far beyond the skill level of basic Toxotai that the extra money they cost as mercenaries is well worth it.

[BroskiDerpman]

EB online seems to have buffed archers and lowered phalanx shield values from the videos by Gamegeek 2 on YouTube.

Going to have to test by trail and error through online with the online edu.

[Petite Wolf]

If I recall correctly EB online is quite different to singleplayer EB because they edited things to make the battles quicker, or something along those lines That would probably be why archers seem more effective there.

[Brihentin13]

Thanks guys!

[Sar1n]

I'm not playing EB, but other mods, and this caught my attention. So a few hints:

Archers can reach enemy's flank even when positioned behind own troops. When your archers are positioned behind left flank, try to fire at troops on enemy's left flank and vice versa.

I generally position slingers AT flank, archers BEHIND flank.

Unless you are playing a phalanx nation, simple line isn't good for your troops. Refusing the center to create your own mini-Cannae is a great way to create a killing zone for your archers stationed at flanks without needing to move them. Troops attempting to envelop your flank expose their backs to your ranged units too. Make use of it. That's where I use slingers most....enemy attempting to get at them will get stuck on defensive unit behind them, while slingers can move just a bit to the side and make use of their exposed rear.

[jmlinden7]

One thing about EB that I like a lot more than vanilla is how it encourages you to use more creative tactics than just "line infantry in front in guard mode, archers behind, hammer and anvil with cav".

Archers in EB don't do significant damage to armored units. Make sure you secure the high ground in your battles, and shoot at enemy units when they have their right flanks or rears exposed to your archers. Otherwise, save your arrows for unarmored/unshielded troops (like Dacian Falxmen).

I find slingers to be much better in EB due to their ease of recruitment, low cost, and armor-piercing projectiles.

[Petite Wolf]

One thing about EB that I like a lot more than vanilla is how it encourages you to use more creative tactics than just "line infantry in front in guard mode, archers behind, hammer and anvil with cav".

That's simply one thing among many that makes EB vastly superior to vanilla. I also like that in EB the battles last long enough for you to use proper tactics, instead of just "Okay, I'll have this unit attack that unit and in 30 seconds one of them will have won." It's far less rock-paper-scissors, which I absolutely love. The battle length in EB is perfect for me. Long enough to employ proper tactics, but not so long that it becomes tedious and boring.

I find slingers to be much better in EB due to their ease of recruitment, low cost, and armor-piercing projectiles.

I find people quite often underestimate just how amazing slingers can be. Their armour piercing trait makes them my preferred choice at low tiers, and I always try to have at least one or two units of slingers in my armies. They work wonders against the likes of the Romans and so on.

[Brihentin13]

I've followed the advice here and it has helped, however, at least for me, slingers have indeed been more effective.

[Petite Wolf]

At lower tiers, I think slingers generally are better. Higher tier archers probably trump them, though. It all depends on the target. If the enemy has armoured units, Slingers are amazing simply because they have armour pen. I think it's a good idea to take both Slingers and Archers, as archers can be used for low armour units while Slingers can target armoured ones.

[Brihentin13]

That's true. The archers(of pretty much any level) tend to be better at neutralizing the enemy missile troops as well(as missile units tend not to be armored much).

[Petite Wolf]

Archers are also good for breaking wavering units with their fire ammunition. That's another thing that makes them useful. To be honest, when it comes to enemy missile troops, I much prefer to just have some light cavalry that can take them out quickly, although yes archers are quite good at dealing with other missile troops.

[Magnum_Opus]

Wait, the Shield value is doubled from the front against non thrown missiles, but not doubled against thrown missiles? Could I get confirmation?

[Entropy Judge]

Wait, the Shield value is doubled from the front against non thrown missiles, but not doubled against thrown missiles? Could I get confirmation?

Can't find where I was first told (somewhere in the vanilla Rome area), but I know I've brought it up before in this forum and Search isn't showing any of them for me, so IDK. The forum doesn't seem to like me very much anymore, so :/ Might as well treat as unconfirmed/despicable lie, because I'm sure not going to browse the ancient topics to try to find out where I first heard it.

[Brihentin13]

I agree with you, Petite Wolf. Light cavalry could just run those pesky skirmishers down. All in all, slingers seem more cost effecient than archers for general use. While a combination of both is ideal, I tend not to base my strategy too much around missile troops. As you guys have shown me, they aren't the real killers in your force(at least for most western armies). They exist to harass and annoy the enemy while I bring the hammer around.