How are army caps determined ?

[kamikazee786]

has anything been said about this in terms of numbers, i know that its determined by the amount of land you have under your control but is it set at a linear rate ?

for example, one region = 1 army and so on ?


I want to have at least 1-2 armies on standby in each province to rush to the aid of any area under attack, i have no faith in those auto-generated garrison units

[omzdog]

I want to have at least 1-2 armies on standby in each province

Good luck funding that.

[xjlxking]

They said it's determined by the amount of regions you hold and technology that you research

[weirdoascensor]

I heard it based on Prestige level like in Shogun 2...or like in FoTS where higher Prestige Level means player can raise more Ministries.

[Post Hoc]

http://forums.totalwar.com/showthrea...on-of-army-cap

Cheers

[Aeneas Veneratio]

^I really don't like that website due to the big sun in the background making reading annoying.

From a realistic point of view, the size of a faction's military should be a calculations of its population, size and wealth. A populous faction has a lot of recruitment potential, while a weathly faction has the option of fielding merceneries, if they had a small population. A faction could either have one megacity or a lot of land to become populous, while a wealthy one could just have a lot of trade going on.

[omzdog]

Well really it should be purely on the number of military aged men and equipment. 16-40(some)
Wealth too could be a factor if the army were composed of non-citizen soldiers as professionals were usually paid in food, salt, and land unless something strange were happening.

[nameless]

^I really don't like that website due to the big sun in the background making reading annoying.

From a realistic point of view, the size of a faction's military should be a calculations of its population, size and wealth. A populous faction has a lot of recruitment potential, while a weathly faction has the option of fielding merceneries, if they had a small population. A faction could either have one megacity or a lot of land to become populous, while a wealthy one could just have a lot of trade going on.

Ok good so I'm not the only one who thinks the same about that website.

On that matter it is somewhat realistic since

more land => more people => larger pool to recruit from

Aside from that wealth contributes to the size (small army or big one) and the quality of the troops.

In any case though it's exponential so even if we have 100 regions we won't have 100 armies running around. My guess is around the 10-15 limit which what most of us have when we start to steamroll.

[craziii]

basically, army limits is another handicap place on the human player because AI can't handle the current style: all TW games before rome 2. the soft cap of the upkeep system was too complicated for the AI so they introduced a hard cap system, army # limits. I hope it is moddable.

this could be another killer for this game. 50% of the campaign map is impassable, since that got through their "100+ years game design experience" I don't trust what they say anymore.

thanks post hoc for the link.

[nameless]

basically, army limits is another handicap place on the human player because AI can't handle the current style: all TW games before rome 2. the soft cap of the upkeep system was too complicated for the AI so they introduced a hard cap system, army # limits. I hope it is moddable.

this could be another killer for this game. 50% of the campaign map is impassable, since that got through their "100+ years game design experience" I don't trust what they say anymore.

thanks post hoc for the link.

That makes zero sense. How is that a handicap?

The main complaint that a lot of people had were that the AI loved to spam one-man million armies and fleets.

This was sorta rectified as the games were improved.

The next issue were the Zerg rushes that the AI was infamous for. It eventually forced the players to set up a choke point and let dozens of armies come at him and wittle them enough so the player can advance.

Peace was difficult because even after you wiped out it's armies it would eventually declare war on you again once they get their military strength back up and running. It also made decisive battles pointless. AI's could launch attacks everywhere because they had the resources to do it.

People also asked for a supply cap or manpower to be represented in-game.

This should improve the game because in real life factions couldn't just attack everywhere. They had to use a balance of diplomacy and decide who to attack and defend. This may surprise you but that's how it happened back then in real life. A general could be having tons of victories in one area but would be forced to pull out because he had to deal with a threat elsewhere. That was not uncommon, especially with large empires.

Why should the AI accept peace with the player when it could easily zerg rush all over the map? It wasn't that the AI couldn't handle the style, it was exploiting it. The limit should force the AI to be careful on where it attacked and defended and made peace with which is how it should be in the first place because that's what WE do too.

And I highly doubt it will handicap us because seriously, when we become big factions how many armies did we maintain with generals leading them? In my FOTS campaign I had at least 5-6 armies with generals leading them during the Realm Divide event. By the time I got halfway I had at least 8-9 armies with 3-4 fleets.

Tell me, how many armies with generals were you leading when you became a reasonably big faction?

I think I saw a screenshot or a video where the guy had two provinces and 2 out of 3 possible armies.
Still don't know what it's based on.

How many regions you have with victories and other misc. that add a tiny percentage it was posted already.

[Dan113112]

basically, army limits is another handicap place on the human player because AI can't handle the current style: all TW games before rome 2. the soft cap of the upkeep system was too complicated for the AI so they introduced a hard cap system, army # limits. I hope it is moddable.

this could be another killer for this game. 50% of the campaign map is impassable, since that got through their "100+ years game design experience" I don't trust what they say anymore.

thanks post hoc for the link.

The new system does help the AI but it is also more realistic than the previous system. With the previous system all you had to have was money. However, despite what many believe, money is not the only thing necessary to have a large and/or competent military. There's a lot more factors. With 3 armies being the limit for minor factions and 15 being the limit for the largest of empires I don't see the problem. Even in realism mods like RTR the player can't really fund more than 10-20 armies. Even with a vast empire like the Seleucids in RTR 6.0. AS the Attalids in RTRVII I owned a good portion of the map and I only ever had a max of 6 armies.

Where did you find out 50% of the campaign map was impassible? From pictures and videos? I remember C. I. F. talking about this. He mentioned that the only places that would be impassible would be things like mountains or really dense forest. In reality that's how it should be. Remember the Battle of Teutoburg Forest? There's a number of reasons why a organized military force wouldn't venture into such a place.

Ok good so I'm not the only one who thinks the same about that website.

On that matter it is somewhat realistic since

more land => more people => larger pool to recruit from

Aside from that wealth contributes to the size (small army or big one) and the quality of the troops.

In any case though it's exponential so even if we have 100 regions we won't have 100 armies running around. My guess is around the 10-15 limit which what most of us have when we start to steamroll.

Agreed.

I want as many armies as my economy can support, without a hardcap.

It has been said that Rome spent nearly 50% of its annual income on its military. That was only about 300, 000-400, 000 troops at its height. Out of a population I've seen estimated to be no higher than 50-80 million. Its military seems to have been quite a strain at times as well. So I don't think how much annual income you have should be the only deciding factor.

Only 10, how earth is it possible to defend and attack at the same time !!!!

this is ridiculous, Its a great concept but theyve taken it to the extremes..... AGAIN

making less sieges was a good choice but the extreme of it was to leave out very important cities such as Jerusalem, Syracuse, Rhodes etc

at the height of its power Rome had 3 times as many legions.




I cant believe that this game hasn't even came out yet and its already needing mods to improve it !!

I really hope that either CA or modders can increase it something reasonable like 30-40 legions for when youv'e got a maxed out Imperium bar and a certain number of provinces.

The max number of armies per faction is 15. 15 is a good number. You seem to think that each army is a legion however that has never been the case in TW. One army is an abstract amount of soldiers.

Army cap levels were 3 6 9 12 and 15 when asked time ago in a gaming event.

Yep.

[Schwarzburg]

I think I saw a screenshot or a video where the guy had two provinces and 2 out of 3 possible armies.
Still don't know what it's based on.

[craziii]

nameless you really need to read the first part of my post, because everything you typed is covered in the "ai can't handle the current upkeep system" basically I want as many armies as my economy can support, without a hardcap. I hope it is moddable.

[nameless]

nameless you really need to read the first part of my post, because everything you typed is covered in the "ai can't handle the current upkeep system" basically I want as many armies as my economy can support, without a hardcap. I hope it is moddable.

Craziii you really need to read the first part of my post because I already covered what you are talking about and it's clear you didn't even bothered to read it at all. I suggest you read it again because you are clearly ignoring my questions which I posted to you.

The one man million armies was something which I said was somewhat already corrected by the time we get to FOTS. One issue though was having to deal is when the AI is badly beaten and you have to chase it's tiny armies that are wrecking havoc on your lands. Then you got the fleets running around causing tons of destruction and you have to dedicate to hunt down.

Then you got the AI doing Zerg rushes and forgetting diplomacy because it can amass tons of armies at will.

So I don't know where you got the idea of "The AI can't handle the upkeep system" it's damn well exploiting it to it's full extent.

So I ask you again, why should the AI be diplomatic and fight smart when it can easily amass dozens of fully armed armies and attack everywhere at once?

And I also ask you, how many armies being led by generals did you have when you became a reasonably powerful empire?

And for some strange reason you seem to be under some weird impression that economies are based on just money. Human capital is one of the main components of measuring an economy and you can't raise an army if you have no people. You can't run an industry if you have no workers either.

Why is that so hard to understand?

The new system does help the AI but it is also more realistic than the previous system. With the previous system all you had to have was money. However, despite what many believe, money is not the only thing necessary to have a large and/or competent military. There's a lot more factors. With 3 armies being the limit for minor factions and 15 being the limit for the largest of empires I don't see the problem. Even in realism mods like RTR the player can't really fund more than 10-20 armies. Even with a vast empire like the Seleucids in RTR 6.0. AS the Attalids in RTRVII I owned a good portion of the map and I only ever had a max of 6 armies.

Exactly it's hardly going to make a difference for us anyways since we already follow the limits.

The max number of armies per faction is 15. 15 is a good number. You seem to think that each army is a legion however that has never been the case in TW. One army is an abstract amount of soldiers.

Geeze even I never reached 15. The highest I ever got was like 5-6.

[craziii]

Craziii you really need to read the first part of my post because I already covered what you are talking about and it's clear you didn't even bothered to read it at all. I suggest you read it again because you are clearly ignoring my questions which I posted to you.

I didn't ignore, more like I didn't think there was a need. so, let kill some time, shall we

The one man million armies was something which I said was somewhat already corrected by the time we get to FOTS. One issue though was having to deal is when the AI is badly beaten and you have to chase it's tiny armies that are wrecking havoc on your lands. Then you got the fleets running around causing tons of destruction and you have to dedicate to hunt down.

chasing 1 man armies? you must be joking? with the corridor style of the shogun 2 map, you had to chase? are you really that bad at the game? maybe I was wrong, this army cap could be for players like you. with the improve AI sea invasions(very well done feature by CA), why didn't you leave 1 or 2 army stacks in your rear regions to deal with them? that was the first thing I learned when I played legendary difficulty. if you don't have an army stack ready for those invasions prepare to lose a few regions = a huge damper on your conquering spree. having control of the seas also prevents it but you would need a 5k upkeep navy to accomplish that, as every faction would have 2 full stacks of ships you have to deal with, even though I have reduced their land holdings down to 2 provinces on legendary difficulty. I basically took the easy way out and just let them land, while my land army stacks just destroy them.

Then you got the AI doing Zerg rushes and forgetting diplomacy because it can amass tons of armies at will.

legendary difficulty = every faction declaring war on you = what diplomacy? I am sorry but that is the only difficulty I play on :/ when you play on the highest difficulty, it is pretty much you vs the entire map from what I can remember.

So I don't know where you got the idea of "The AI can't handle the upkeep system" it's damn well exploiting it to it's full extent.

I think I was spot on, this army limit thing is for players like you who can't deal with the AI raiding your lands and buildings even though the shogun 2 campaign map = you can't move anywhere until you have destroyed the AI armies = essentially, corridors + funnels.

So I ask you again, why should the AI be diplomatic and fight smart when it can easily amass dozens of fully armed armies and attack everywhere at once?

stop asking for human like AI, if CA can create something even remotely close to human level, I don't think they need to make games anymore

And I also ask you, how many armies being led by generals did you have when you became a reasonably powerful empire?

rtw, easily 15 to 25 stacks during my late games. rome 1 is unique in this aspect since you can have as many generals as you have provinces minus 1 I had to tweak the mods/upkeep I played to allow that during mid game, sometimes I have had 5+ battles in one turn. awesome stuff. I didn't play enough of etw to comment. NTW was 10 to 20, about half were led by captains. of course tweaks were needed. shogun 2, I use radious mods + tweaks. army stacks filled the screen, I didn't count so I don't exactly remember much as I stopped playing shogun 2 pretty fast due to the crap campaign map. I bought the dlcs for cheap when I found out about the controllable 40 units in rots n fots, but I also got bored pretty fast due to the map.

And for some strange reason you seem to be under some weird impression that economies are based on just money. Human capital is one of the main components of measuring an economy and you can't raise an army if you have no people. You can't run an industry if you have no workers either.

why is it so strange when this is a game? human capital was taken out of the equation after rome 1 money has always been the driving + sustaining factor behind any and every war. you can quote me on that.

Why is that so hard to understand?

what makes you think I didn't understand? it was a mistake on my part to assume I didn't need to explain my posts.

I do want to correct something though. this hard cap isn't just for the benefit of the AI(so it wouldn't just raid your lands[even though I really don't know how the ai can get past your army stacks in shogun 2] with a few units to sabotage your holdings and get money from raiding, the raiding parties would now be fully flesh out armies = essentially the same as full on sea invasions in shogun 2) it is also a cap to help players dealing with the AI for players like you. please don't be offended, just an honest observation base on your post.

I just want it to be moddable.

PS: I ing love how I can drag the text box and make it bigger, so easy to do large posts now.

@kamikazee because you can command your vassals but you can't do the same to your allies.

[daelin4]

From reading around, it seems the REAL limitation is found in generals: I mean you can't have an army without a general, so naturally if you only get 4 generals you have only 4 armies max until you can recruit another general.

It also seems that the mechanism to get more (the fame meter) is similar to the way fame worked in Fall of the Samurai- you can't issue the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th commissions unless you have achieved enough Fame for each level. Natural game progression like researching tech and conquering regions are the source of gaining fame. In other words, you get more armies as you grow bigger, which makes it possible in the first place.

It MIGHT actually be possible to get like 10 armies when you only have like 5 regions, but that would require going out of your way like turtling the hell outta the game and ding nothing but save up money for it.

Hopefully it's not as unbearable as it sounds. In a way there is basis to this limitation, but I really hope we don't have situations where factions are supremely rich but are not allowed to make an army. I think finance should be one of the limitations as well, so it would still be a soft cap.

[Biggus Splenus]

Your income I suppose, that's how it's been with every Total War.

[kamikazee786]

hmm thank you all for that, i have another question.

does the cap decrease if you lose fame, what happens to any excess armies that you have over the cap ?

[nrthee2]

I want to have at least 1-2 armies on standby in each province

lol, you must be very rich...

hmm thank you all for that, i have another question.

does the cap decrease if you lose fame, what happens to any excess armies that you have over the cap ?

I don't think you will lose an existing army if you lose fame, but who knows, maybe you cannot recruit(not replenish) that army until you have got a decent fame again

[Bacara]

lol, you must be very rich...


I don't think you will lose an existing army if you lose fame, but who knows, maybe you cannot recruit(not replenish) that army until you have got a decent fame again

Probably a trainer..