Standard Bearers?

[Lavrentivs]

Hello all,

Just noticed in the recently leaked Gamestar videos and the preview from Heir of Carthage that there are no standard bearers:









However, they are present in the Makedon preview, and the Teutoburg preview:




Have they been scrubbed out? Or, are they perhaps attainable via technology and come with a perk similar to the equites' draco?

I know it doesn't really matter for many, but the signifer was of great importance in the Roman army and are also quite iconic.

[davieholgate]

CA was misleading you all along, those videos were leaked and CA did not want them shown so you think youre getting the best product. Regardless, they probably took them out because they couldnt fit them into the battle well enough, 1 extra useless guy witha huge metal pole really. EDIT: I DO NOT think they are useless, just showing CA's train of thought.

[Lavrentivs]

I would not say a signifer was useless; in battle they were used as an officer for the legionaries were to rally to, they may also have been used to relay signals, and the standard was actually a religious symbol sacred to the legion (not just the aquila).

I have no idea about standard bearers but i thought he said in the video that the 'draco' ability was standard on Equites and didn't need to be researched?

Yes, that was said with the draco ability. I suggested that it may be attainable via technology for legionaries in particular, since it may be a viable explanation for their absence.

[davieholgate]

I would not say a signifer was useless; in battle they were used as an officer for the legionaries were to rally to, they may also have been used to relay signals, and the standard was actually a religious symbol sacred to the legion (not just the aquila).

I just edited that post to make it sound less blunt, i didnt mean they were completely useless.

[Caledoni]

I have no idea about standard bearers but i thought he said in the video that the 'draco' ability was standard on Equites and didn't need to be researched?

[Doe3000]

I think the difference is that one unit is a mid Republican era unit (Triarii?) while the other is an Imperial era Cohort. Battle standards did not feature much in Roman warfare until the time of Gaius Marius and his campaigns against Jugurtha, and later the Teutons and Cimbri. At least I hope that's why they are absent.

[Megasalexandros]

I've noticed that too, there are no standard bearers or at the best there is only one standard ever seen in Rome 2, that in my opinion would be a major stylistic loss for the game, a cohort should certainly have a bearer of the eagle, a bearer for the Legions standard a cornicaen and a centurion of course, also the officers of the Roman army were not placed in the center as it is shown in Rome 2 videos, but to the sides of a formation.
Personally i would have expected to see at least the number of officers we have seen in Rome 1 mods such as EB or Roma Surrectum, but it is obvious that CA is not implementing them, something i hope will be fixed either with patches(which is highly unlikely in my opinion) or with mods, which is also doubtful.

[Caledoni]

based purely on my personal opinion i think it is very likely that if, as they appear not be, units have no standards then it will be possible to research them or add them some way within the game.

they have mentioned legionary eagles being captured so they will have to be added to armies at some point, i don't see why other standards couldn't be added possibly.

[Lavrentivs]

Well, they are present in the images that I have edited into the first post (sorry, forgot to mention I added images). Signifers have been present along with centurions, so I wonder why they aren't there any more. @Doe3000, as far as I know, there were still standard bearers present within the Polybian legions, but I will have to find a reference for that, I only say this because they have included in artistic reconstructions. It would be interesting to have a look.

I just edited that post to make it sound less blunt, i didnt mean they were completely useless.

sorry mate, being British I now feel ashamed for not reading into the sarcasm (I'm quite tired! lol).

I think you are right. I think it was Marius who came up with the idea for having and Eagle Standard for a Legion. Before that they carried standards depicting various animals or emblems.

Aye, I remember seeing bulls/wolves in some of McBride's depictions. I wonder if they are mentioned at all by the likes of Polybios/Plutarch/Livy I could probably search through them on Perseus

[Mortarion]

Maybe you can get it through technology/reforms? The top screenshots look like an early era time, while the one bellow looks like late era.

[Lavrentivs]

Bottom left are hastati mate, who are earlier than the legionaries depicted top-right.

[Ushoron]

In the teutoburg video I remember seeing Roman standard bearers.

[Dominian]

The gamestar videos weren't leaked. Subscribers (like me) got that in the mail and some of it has been online on this legitimate site for days. If it was a leak they would have taken it down. There are no musicians or standard bearers in campaign battles. They said it was for reasons of animation memory, which gave me a good laugh.

[Dredd]

Perhaps it's a technology advancement addition, like with Shogun 2 FOTS where as you modernized more your Generals started looking less and less Japanese(losing the katana for a saber, wearing cavalry pants that US Cavalry sported, unarmored horses, etc.)

[Lavrentivs]

On standard bearers in the republic:

(Livy 34.46.10-13) - this section is about Tiberius Sempronius Longus fighting the boii during the colonisation of Gaul c. 194 BCE

For a long time they fought in these confined spaces; it was a matter not so much of hands and swords as of making [p. 539]their way by pushing against one another with shields³and bodies, the Romans trying to force a way out for their standards, the Gauls trying either to enter the camp or to prevent the Romans from leaving it. [11] Nor could the lines be moved in either direction until Quintus Victorius, a senior centurion, and Gaius Atinius, tribune [12] of the soldiers, the latter of the fourth, the former of the second legion, resorting to a device often tried in desperate encounters, snatched the standards from the hands of their bearers and threw them into the midst of the enemy.⁴ In their eager struggle to get back their standard, the soldiers of the second legion were the first to force their way through the gate.

From Michel Fugere's "Weapons of the Romans" 2002 (translated from French by David G. Smith), p. 47

Edit:

82 BCE

49 BCE

The adoption of the eagle as the symbol of the legion took place under Marius, and according to Pliny the Elder, who dates its adoption as 104 BC, previous symbols such as the lion, minotaur, horse and boar were dropped; instead, each legion had its own eagle. This did not mean other standards of lesser importance disappeared; silver coins struck in 82 and 49 BC show an eagle between two standards which carry the letters H and P respectively, which can almost certainly be interpreted as referring to the hastati and principes. Such standards, decorated with discs and other symbols, but not crowned with a token animal as they were in the time of Polybius, were used throughout the Principate.

The above may suggest that Polybian armies would also have been using standards on both a legion and manipular scale (hence the H and P).

[Doe3000]

On standard bearers in the republic:

(Livy 34.46.10-13) - this section is about Tiberius Sempronius Longus fighting the boii during the colonisation of Gaul c. 194 BCE





From Michel Fugere's "Weapons of the Romans" 2002 (translated from French by David G. Smith), p. 47

Thanks for the quotes, I did doubt myself about the standards being used in earlier times. Can anyone confirm whether some Roman units had standard bearers in the original Rome Total War? I recall that the Imperial First Cohort had an Aquilifier (Eagle Standrad Bearer) but I can't recall if the Hastati and Principes had signifers. The Velites certainly did not. Perhaps only important or veteran units have signifers in Rome II?

[Lavrentivs]

Thanks for the quotes, I did doubt myself about the standards being used in earlier times. Can anyone confirm whether some Roman units had standard bearers in the original Rome Total War? I recall that the Imperial First Cohort had an Aquilifier (Eagle Standrad Bearer) but I can't recall if the Hastati and Principes had signifers. The Velites certainly did not. Perhaps only important or veteran units have signifers in Rome II?

Triarii had standards (nostalgia attack ) :



Legionaries did:



Velites did not, neither did Principes or Hastati.

[Ushoron]

If you look at the screenshots of the later game Romans they have standard bearers.

[kamikazee786]

hmmm, well the battles of those vids without the signifiers are all from the prologue, perhaps they're only available in the campaign through technological reforms ??

[Lavrentivs]

hmmm, well the battles of those vids without the signifiers are all from the prologue, perhaps they're only available in the campaign through technological reforms ??

Yes, I thought that too; they could come from the technology tree. The only reason they could/should be on the tech tree is because they offer a morale boost to stats or an ability. If they do nothing, they should just be with the maniples in the first place.