Theological basis for Sunni/ Shiite divide

[ENSAIS]

I realize there is already a substantial general Islam thread. But it seems to be focused on Muslim/ anti-Muslim theology and differences.

I am hoping here to have crystallized by Muslims what they believe the theological differences are that underly the Sunni / Shiite divide in the Islamic world.

Please when describing the divide label yourself as a Sunni or Shiite [if that is not offensive to you].

Thanks!
ENSAIS

[Sher Khan]

It's a strange, strange divide in my honest opinion. Whereas Martin Luther started the Christian split over a bunch of actions of the Catholic Church, this one begins right after Muhammad dies. The next caliph needed to be chosen. 'Sunnis' were the ones who backed Abu Bakr while the 'Shi'ites' backed Ali. Purely politics I think at this point. After much drama, the 'Sunni' side won out for the position of Caliph, but the 'Shi'ites' still followed their own leaders they believed to be the right one. Afterwards, demonization of each other's choices started popping up, and sooner or later each sides religious views started to conflict (either from actual theological dispute or simply trying to be different from one another).

I think that's the Sunni/Shi ite divide in a nutshell, though I haven't spent much time on the topic in detail. I personally don't care for either name. One grew through the power of the Ottomans and the other survived through thick and thin.

[MasterAdnin]

There is not much difference. Shi'as believe that Hasarat Ali should have been Caliph instead of Abu Bakr. Another thing is the way we do namaz/salaat, Sunni's have their arms folded whilst Shi'as have their arms free, Shia's also do Qunood, while Sunni's do not, during namaz/salaat I mean. Besides for that, nothing really.

Salaam,
Adnan

[ENSAIS]

So does the disagreement on if Hasarat Ali should have been Caliph instead of Abu Bakr entail two separate lines of competing caliphs that exist in some form today? Have the two separate lines continued or evolved into some sompeting religious authorities that have different or competing edicts etc...?

How minor are the differences in the practices and what they signifiy (such as arms free or folded?)

Thanks,
ENSAIS

[nadjib]

So does the disagreement on if Hasarat Ali should have been Caliph instead of Abu Bakr entail two separate lines of competing caliphs that exist in some form today? Have the two separate lines continued or evolved into some sompeting religious authorities that have different or competing edicts etc...?

How minor are the differences in the practices and what they signifiy (such as arms free or folded?)

Thanks,
ENSAIS

The problem is that Ali and Abu Bakr (RA) was closest friends. Their followers were making troubles. Ali accepted Abu Bakr as Caliph. :s really strange Sunni/Chiites division cant' even understand it. btw I'm sunni but have any problem with my shi'a brothers.

[MasterAdnin]

The problem is that Ali and Abu Bakr (RA) was closest friends. Their followers were making troubles. Ali accepted Abu Bakr as Caliph. :s really strange Sunni/Chiites division cant' even understand it. btw I'm sunni but have any problem with my shi'a brothers.

The thing is that Abu Bakr was harassing and hurting those who didn't accept Abu Bakr as Caliph, and therefore to stop the violence, Hazarat Ali accepted Abu Bakr as Caliph to stop the violence going on.

BTW, Yes, I have many friends who are both Shi'a and many who are Sunni.

Salaam,
Adnan

[nadjib]

The thing is that Abu Bakr was harassing and hurting those who didn't accept Abu Bakr as Caliph, and therefore to stop the violence, Hazarat Ali accepted Abu Bakr as Caliph to stop the violence going on.

BTW, Yes, I have many friends who are both Shi'a and many who are Sunni.

Salaam,
Adnan

Adnan, my brother, Abu Baker CAN'T DO THAT. it's a lie from your big scholars (May Allah Forgive Them). How can Ali hate Abu Bakr and Umar and give his sons their names????!!!!

[MasterAdnin]

Adnan, my brother, Abu Baker CAN'T DO THAT. it's a lie from your big scholars (May Allah Forgive Them). How can Ali hate Abu Bakr and Umar and give his sons their names????!!!!

Then I ask you to find the reason of Bibi Fatima's(PBUH) death. Find out how she died, and the reason behind her death, and what she was doing at the time. Plus, Hazarat Ali never gave his children the names of Umar or Abu Bakr.

Salaam,
Adnan

[mu7areb elrowafeth]

my friends.......Shie'ah", "Shi'a": a singular Arabic noun means group, party, sect, supporter. The plural form is Shiya' and Ashyaa'. There is another word in Arabic that denotes the same meaning, i.e Hizb, its plural is Ahzaab. Both terms were used in the Holy Qur'an.
as a sunni, I should have to conduct at what our prophet have done. then sunnah means what the prophet have done. we take the things that our prophet do from his companions, the shiites see the companions as cursed and did not obey what the prophet have said ((ofcourse this is an obvious lie)). the hate his wives especially Aisha and hafsa. As we know, Iran or persia the country or empire of ((majos)) (fire worshippers), have been conquered by abu bakr and omar and othman (caliphs of islam) and defeated the persians. they hate them 'cos they have defeated the persians. The shiite references or consultants ((marjeiah)) is in Iran ((qum)). The founder of shiism is Abdullah ibn abi sab'a elyahody ((the jew)). they really hate us sunni people, the proof as follows:

If someone tells you that Iblis learns wickedness from the Shi'ites, it may not be an exageration. The Shi'ites, and most specifically the extremest sect, known as Ithna Ashariyyah - the worst of all Shi'i sects - believe that we are Kafir, but they are commanded to prevaricate us, until their Massiah the myth (al-Mahdi) arise. At this point, he will start to execute us in revenge:


"When Imam Mahdi appears, he will start to execute the Sunni scholars before turning to the non-believers." (i.e., AhluSunnah)
Haqqul Yaqeen: Muhammad Baqir al-Majlisi, vol.2, p. 527

It is only the credulous Muslims who fall prey to their deception, living as animals, eating, drinking and unaware of a thing around them.

The following Shi'i narrations should shed a light on the issue presented:

1.04 Narrated Muhammad bin Ali [rahimahullah] from his uncle Muhammad bin Abil-Qasim, from Muhammad bin Ali al-Kufi, from Muhammad bin Sinaan, from Ziyad bin al-Munthir, from Sa'eed bin Jubair, from Ibn Abbas said: The Messenger [pbuh] said:
He who disputes with Ali bin Abi talib [as] after me is a Kafir and he who joins someone with him is a Polytheist. He who loves him is a believer, and he who hates him is a hypocrite. He who follows him is a follower, and who fights him is an apostate, and who rejects him will perish. Ali is the Light of Allah in His earth and His proof on His servants. Ali is the sword of Allah against His enemies, and the inheritor of the knowledge of His Prophets. Ali is the Upper Word of Allah, and the word of his enemies is the lower. Ali is the Master of the Appointees (Awsiya), and the Appointee of the Master of Prophets. Ali is the Chief of Believers (Amirul-Mu'mineen), leader of "al-Ghurr al-Muhajjalin" and the Imam of all Muslims, Allah does not accept the faith but by accepting his Walayah and (full) obediance to him."
al-Amaali: Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi, 3rd Council, p.19, Narration 6.
Disscussion: It is very clear from this narration, according to the Shi'ites, that the Companions of the Apostle of Allah and all AhluSunnah wal Jamaa'ah, are Kafir polytheists. It is worthy of note here, how Ali is elevated to the status of Allah [swt], that if you joined an Imam beside him, it is equal to joining another god beside Allah. The fabrication of this narration and thousands others are clear, specially for those who read Arabic and can distinguish between the Prophet's style of talk and the Persian Zoroastrian who tries to immitate him.


1.04 Narrated Muhammad bin Yahya, from Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Issa, from Muhammad bin Sinaan, from Muawiyah bin Wahab said:
We departed to Makka and in our company was a righteous old man who do not know about this matter (Shi'ism) and performs the full prayer during travel, and with him was his nephew, who was a Muslim. The old man got sick, so I said to his nephew: (I wish) If you present this matter (of Shi'ism) to your uncle, perhaps Allah saves him. Everybody said: Leave the old man alone, he seems alright. His nephew did not wait long to say: Uncle, the people became apostates after the Messenger of Allah [pbuh] save very few men, and Ali bin Abi Talib [as] was entitled to the same obediance that the Messenger [pbuh] enjoyed, and after the Messenger of Allah, truth and obediance was due to him. (The Narrator) Said: The old man took a deep breath and said: I am on this path, and died. So (later on) we entered on Abu Abdullah [as], and Ali bin As-Sariy related this story to Abu Abdullah [as], thus he said: He is a man from the people of Paradise. Ali bin As-Sariy said: But he did not know a thing about this (shi'ism) save that hour ! (The Imam) Said: What (else) you want from him? By Allah he entered the Paradise."
al-Kafi (fil Usool): al-Kulainy, Book of Faith & Disbelief, Chapter: Things That Allah Gave to Adam [as] At The Time of Repentance, vol.2, p.440, narration 4.

proofs of hatred to the companions of the prophet (pbuh):
Shi'ites hold that after the demise of the Prophet [saw], the entire population of the honorable companions became apostates (kafirs), save three, mainly for pledging Bay'ah (allegiance) to Abu Bakr [ra]. This is mainly why they reject the Prophetic Traditions (Ahadith), as in the collections of AhluSunnah wal Jamaa'ah, and replaced them with the traditions of their Imams. Following are some examples:


1.01 (Imam) Abu Ja'far [as]said: The people were people of apostacy after the Prophet save three. I said (the narrator): Who are these three? He said: al-Miqdad bin al-Aswad, Abu Tharr al-Ghafari and Salmaan the Persian....and that is the meaning of His saying: 3:144. Muhammad is no more than a Messenger: many were the Messengers that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then turn back on your heels?

Rijaal al-Kash-shi: pp. 12-13. From:Ash-Shi'a WasSunnah, Ehsan Elahi Zaheer, p.49

1.02 Narrated several of our friends, from Himran bin A'yun: I said to Abu Ja'far [as]: May I be your ransome, indeed we are very few (to the point) if we gathered on a sheep (to eat it), do you think we will finish it? He said: Would you like for me to tell you something more amazing? al-Muhajiroon and al-Ansaar were all gone save, and he pointed with his hand, three. Himran said: May I be your ransome, what about Ammar? He said: May Allah cover Ammar with His mercy, he pledged allegiance and fell a martyr. I said to myself: There is nothing better than falling a martyr, upon which he looked at me and said: Is it possible that you think he's like the three? Your thought is far from truth.
al-Kafi fil-Usool: al-Kulayni,Kitab al-Iman wal-Kufr, chapter:The Few Number of Believers, Narration No.6, vol.2, p.244

When Islaam came as a guidance for mankind, the early generation of devoted Muslims sincerely worked hard to propagate and defend it, allowing Islaam to spread
steadfastly. However, this created a wave of anger and hatred towards Islaam from some of the narrow minded religious figures, especially of Judaism. They plotted to
assassinate the prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) and to create discord or fighting among Muslims (Fitnah). However, the Iman or faith of the companions was so strong that they were not affected by such conspiracies. After the death of many companions, some conspiracies found its way first, thru Muslims less educated about Islaam then later on to the rest of the Muslim Community.

During the term of the first and second Ca?lee?phah?s (Leader of the whole Muslim nation) there were still many companions. By the end of the third Ca?lee?phah?s reign, a great number of the companions of the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) had passed away, while the number of new generation and new converts had multiplied
tremendously. At this time, the tribalist, racist and other movements found an opportunity to come to the surface. Among these movements was that of Abdullah Bin
Sabaa, as had been mentioned above. He is a Yemen Jew who claimed that Ali had divine authority. This developed further into the claim that he, his son, Al-Hassan,
his son Al-Hussain and the descendants of the latter should be the future leaders of the whole Muslim Ummah forever. This was, of course, contrary to the current
practice since after the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) Abu Bakr had been elected as the Caliph (Leader) of the whole Muslim Ummah (Nation), followed by Omar. There was as yet, until today, no claim that Ali should be the first Ca?lee?phah?.

This allegation however, finally found a place of acceptance in the capital of the previously Iranian Empire, Al-Madayen, more easily than in the other regions of the
Islaamic Empire at that time, especially since Al-Hussain, second son of Ali, was then married to the daughter of the last Iranian Emperor.

This is why the Shee?ah concept of the hereditary system of leadership is confined to the descendants of Al-Husain, beginning with fourth Shiite?s Imam (leader). The
claim that Ali should be the first Caliph started mainly as a political ploy to create discord among Muslims by agitating the tribal and racial differences and hostilities.

The end result of the political claim, however, was a religious difference and deviation from the Islaam maintained by the great majority of Muslim scholars.

Shee3ah derive their name from Shee?ee which means in Arabic supporter, here to mean the supporters of Ali, his sons, Hassan and Hussain, and descendants of
Hussain. Shee3ah are divided into groups: the Zaidis, who have deviated the least; the Ja3fari Eth3nai Ashri, the Ismailis, and the Alawi Nusairi. Druzes derive their roots from Ismailism and Fatimid Shee3ah.

as we can see they believe in alot of wierd things like.....the ya'afoor donkey that talked to the prophet (lie) and the temporary marriage (you can marry a woman even ur wifes sis!!!!! , even decreeing your sexual lust with this woman lets say for a half hour or less??!!), the imamz fart, dung and urine is purer than humanz normal restriking down dirt ((((even the fart of imam is like exhale musk!!!????))))......etc

there is more to come........plz give me time to find the referances of there Imams
thanx

[AngryTitusPullo]

Honestly I'm afraid that this topic comes up here. Just when we muslims here at twc are rather united against the infidels in reality this split eventhough it's base on political stance it has, thoughout the centuries brough bloodshed among our muslims brothers, even until this day.

O pray for the day there's no longer Sunni or Shiah, only Islam and muslims.

There is not much difference. Shi'as believe that Hasarat Ali should have been Caliph instead of Abu Bakr. Another thing is the way we do namaz/salaat, Sunni's have their arms folded whilst Shi'as have their arms free, Shia's also do Qunood, while Sunni's do not, during namaz/salaat I mean. Besides for that, nothing really.

Salaam,
Adnan

Qunood ? In every prayer ? We only do during Subuh prayer (if that's the same Qunood as Shiah's) :hmmm:

[Dromikaites]

Honestly I'm afraid that this topic comes up here. Just when we muslims here at twc are rather united against the infidels in reality this split eventhough it's base on political stance it has, thoughout the centuries brough bloodshed among our muslims brothers, even until this day.

Well, you didn't expect the Christians to be the only ones having fun killing each other for religious reasons, did you?

O pray for the day there's no longer Sunni or Shiah, only Islam and muslims.

Come on, lighten up! In the Afterlife all the Muslims, be they Sunni or Shiah will be together anyway so I guess this means they will be eventualy reconcilled with each other. And I'm using a Christian point of view when I say that (I leave it to AngryTitusPullo to explain to the less subtle Muslims on this thread what I ment )

[AngryTitusPullo]

Well, you didn't expect the Christians to be the only ones having fun killing each other for religious reasons, did you?

Men will always kill each other no matter what's the reason. Using the religious point are only just trying to justify it.

Come on, lighten up! In the Afterlife all the Muslims, be they Sunni or Shiah will be together anyway so I guess this means they will be eventualy reconcilled with each other. And I'm using a Christian point of view when I say that (I leave it to AngryTitusPullo to explain to the less subtle Muslims on this thread what I ment )

Wanna bet about the afterlife ? I'm absolutely, surely, confidently, honestly that I'm going to say to you: "See, I told you soo..." while lying down sipping Khamar (some kind of wine probably) tended by 70 servants in the form of angelic virgins.. :tooth:

Upps... About the topic.. At least here at TWC where we're the minority.... Can't you atleast give us a chance to be united for once ? I mean if we do wants to kill each other we probably should go to Iraq. Save all the trouble for those Coalition Liberators..

dromikaites sunnis are far more different than those shiites..........the shiites believe that the book is distorted ((just because it was written down at Othmans era!!!!????)) any Muslim that think that the Quran is distorted or corrupted is an infidel and blasphemous........blasphemy is the shiite speciality....I think that this is a great proof that the shiites don't believe in the Quran.....they only believe on what the ((fake)) imamz of Iran and Iraq say.........plz read what I have written and still I ask yall to wait for the resources of their beliefs. thanx
and plz read what I have written and see why conflicts occur between the shiites and Muslims

Woah.. this is not helping at all. How can muslims be united if we among ourselves hve distrust in each other ?

Why not we use this thread to achieve better understanding. I'm sure we've heard about bad stuff or good stuff about Sunnis or Shiah in our education etc, but instead of accusing each other why not we ask if there are true.

I have always meant to ask this and here's I believe there's a chance. To my Shiah friends:

Back in school (long time ago) one of my teacher have said that Shiah (or probably some minor/extreme sect) are considered heretic because they actually believed that the revelations are suppose to be for Saidina Ali r.a. instead Muhammad S.A.W ? I'm sure it's not true, at least for the majority, but is there actually a sect who holds that position ? :hmmm:

[mu7areb elrowafeth]

dromikaites sunnis are far more different than those shiites..........the shiites believe that the book is distorted ((just because it was written down at Othmans era!!!!????)) any Muslim that think that the Quran is distorted or corrupted is an infidel and blasphemous........blasphemy is the shiite speciality....I think that this is a great proof that the shiites don't believe in the Quran.....they only believe on what the ((fake)) imamz of Iran and Iraq say.........plz read what I have written and still I ask yall to wait for the resources of their beliefs. thanx
and plz read what I have written and see why conflicts occur between the shiites and Muslims

[Richard the Lionheart]

dromikaites sunnis are far more different than those shiites..........the shiites believe that the book is distorted ((just because it was written down at Othmans era!!!!????)) any Muslim that think that the Quran is distorted or corrupted is an infidel and blasphemous........blasphemy is the shiite speciality....I think that this is a great proof that the shiites don't believe in the Quran.....they only believe on what the ((fake)) imamz of Iran and Iraq say.........plz read what I have written and still I ask yall to wait for the resources of their beliefs. thanx
and plz read what I have written and see why conflicts occur between the shiites and Muslims

Shiites saying that the Koran is corrupted? I've never heard that one. From what I understand, Shiites and Sunnis both believe in the Koran. Period.

While Shi'a and Sunni accept the same sacred text, the Qur'an, some claim that Shi'ah dispute the current version, i.e. they add two additional surahs known as al-Nurayn and al-Wilaya.[4] Nonetheless, Shi'as claim that they are falsely accused of this, as they believe, like Sunnis, that the quran has never been changed.

[ENSAIS]

I sincerely thank those who have posted so far.

I am truly interested in understanding the theological, philosophical, and other differences between Sunni and Shiite.

And I don't intend for any degeneration here... thank you for keeping this merely informative to an outsider. I am uneducated about what these differences are, and I thank you for informing me.

ENSAIS

[ENSAIS]

Angry...
don't mean to rain on your parade for unity... by all means HAVE your unity. But given that in today's Iraq there is massive Sunni / Shiite violence that seems motivated by SOME difference (and I'd have to assume the difference is at least on some level theological...) and given that Shiite Iran is becoming more and more of a power broker at the expense of previously unrivaled local powers Sunni Saudi Arabia and Egypt... Given all THAT I really am hoping to actually understand the differences, rather than just having moderates agree that you have much, much more in common than your differences.

That doesn't mean that the delivery of information and opinion on what those differences are has to degenerate, though being obviously an issue close to the hearts of those I am requesting the info from, I would understand a certain difficulty in maintaining a more scholastic detachment.

Thanks to you all so far anyway... after I gather more info in the thread I intend to be more proactive and as a western Christian attempt to condense what I gather from YOUR information the most significanct theological differences are, and then invite your critique to inform me further.

ENSAIS

[mu7areb elrowafeth]

honor and glory ensais and angrytituspullo......my friends....shiism is far from religion, they believe that the Quran now is a corrupt but a respective one for now ((like a temporary book)). my bro's it's a matter of principle, we should take our religion from Good scholars.....I'll give a very simple example about the shiites for my christian friends......as we know that christians commonly believe that jesus ((pbuh)) companions are the best after jesus right???? excuse my english....even the jews say moses's people are the better ones after moses ((pbuh)) but the shiites say Mohammed ((pbuh)) companions are cursed and did not obey what the prophet have said and that they are colluding together against the prophet for the caliphate.....contradictions and more contradictions concomitant with hatred towards the possessors of the prophet ((pbuh))......
bro angry....what ur teacher have said is right but believe me, all the shiite sects hate the prophet more than his companions.............they really think that GOD and his archangel jibreel
mistakened!!!!!! they thought ((GOD and jibreel)) that they gave it to Ali r.a.a but then it ended up with Mohammed!!!!!!!!!!! when I first heared it I laughed alot till I wet my pants.....If GOD have mistakened then he have mistakened too to give the messages to jesus and moses and adam and nooh......etc........contradictions as you can see........so brother's in Islam beware of those shiites and what they are saying......they are the purpose of us being down you know.......there is more things they have done but let me bring the resources for the third time..........
thanks

[Richard the Lionheart]

honor and glory ensais and angrytituspullo......my friends....shiism is far from religion, they believe that the Quran now is a corrupt but a respective one for now ((like a temporary book)). my bro's it's a matter of principle, we should take our religion from Good scholars.....I'll give a very simple example about the shiites for my christian friends......as we know that christians commonly believe that jesus ((pbuh)) companions are the best after jesus right???? excuse my english....even the jews say moses's people are the better ones after moses ((pbuh)) but the shiites say Mohammed ((pbuh)) companions are cursed and did not obey what the prophet have said and that they are colluding together against the prophet for the caliphate.....contradictions and more contradictions concomitant with hatred towards the possessors of the prophet ((pbuh))......
bro angry....what ur teacher have said is right but believe me, all the shiite sects hate the prophet more than his companions.............they really think that GOD and his archangel jibreel
mistakened!!!!!! they thought ((GOD and jibreel)) that they gave it to Ali r.a.a but then it ended up with Mohammed!!!!!!!!!!! when I first heared it I laughed alot till I wet my pants.....If GOD have mistakened then he have mistakened too to give the messages to jesus and moses and adam and nooh......etc........contradictions as you can see........so brother's in Islam beware of those shiites and what they are saying......they are the purpose of us being down you know.......there is more things they have done but let me bring the resources for the third time..........
thanks

All I have to say, is that you have a total misunderstanding and a total misconception about the Shia sect. What you say, I have never read or heard anywhere.

[Dromikaites]

All I have to say, is that you have a total misunderstanding and a total misconception about the Shia sect. What you say, I have never read or heard anywhere.

Could it that be because maybe you didn't read the Sunni/Shiah literature refering to Shiah/Sunnis?!

It took the Europeans 200 years of religious wars, including one that lasted for 30 years and resulted in killing half of the population of Germany for the Christians to realise how smart it is to fight for religious reasons. 30 years from now on and at the cost of 10 million Iraqis dead I bet the Muslims would come to the same conclusion. Till then however all we can do is one of the two:

1. Convert all the Muslims to Christianity given the fact the Christians don't kill each other for religious matters anymore. This solution has also the advantage of saving the souls of 1 billion+ Muslims who would otherwise spend their afterlife you know where;

2. Have a lot of popcorn at hand in order to fully enjoy the show while it unfolds. This has the benefit that the Shias and the Sunnis will get equal treatment in the Afterlife so none of them would feel discriminated. Also both sides would find out exactly what God thinks about them and their religious war;

[Dromikaites]

Cool! I was born too late to enjoy the sight of Christians killing each other for matters of religion. However it seems I was born at the right time to see Shiahs and Sunnis bombing each other, cutting each other's throats or drilling each other's heads with Black & Deckers. Keep up the good work, folks!

Oh, and if some rational people like AngryTitusPullo or Shere Khan seem to get in the way, you know what to do with them, right?