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Thread: Will there be white Nubians?

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  1. #1
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Will there be white Nubians?

    There are two reasons I'm making this thread. Firstly, I'd like to see the Nubians represented in a historically correct manner where white people are also represented. Secondly, I'm interested in seeing if the very same people who ferociously advocate black legionaries from this thread, also will advocate white Nubians. Will they also claim it is racist not to include white Nubians?

    Contrary to what the PC-brigade that advocate black legionaries can show for, there is actually explicit archeological evidence for white Nubians. See link

    http://wysinger.homestead.com/hair_semma.pdf

    ABSTRACT:
    Hair samples from 76 burials at Semna South (Sudanese Nubia) were examined using a variety of techniques. Electrophoresis and fluo- rescence microscopy indicated some oxidation of the cuticule and keratin pro- tein had taken place. However, the cuticular structure and the lack of fluores- cence of the cortex indicate that the low humidity and non-alkaline conditions preserved the physical and chemical properties of the hair well. Pigmentation, even allowing for oxidation of melanin, showed a higher proportion of lighter samples than is currently associated with the Nubian area. Hair form analysis showed medium diameter and scale count; the curling variables were inter- mediate between European and African samples. There was a high ratio of maximum to minimum curvature (a measure of irregularity), approached only by Melanesian samples. Meroitic and X-group burial types were not statistical- ly significantly different (largely due to sample sizes), but the X-group, espe- cially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Principal components analysis showed the Semna sample to be sig- nificantly different from seven populations examined earlier.

    Quote from text 1:

    Qualitative grading of the samples on the Fischer-Saller scale is shown in table 1. Sam- ples that were graded on the red scale (I-VI) for degree of red pigmentation were also graded on the blond-brown-black scale (A-Y) for degree of black pigmentation. Twenty-six percent (29% of the Meroitic, 13% of the X- group) of the total sample had some red pig- mentation, and 10.5% (8.9 Meroitic, 13% X- group) had "blond" pigmentation (Fischer- Saller category G or less).

    Quote from text 2:

    As Brothwell and Spearman (‘63) point out, reddish-brown ancient hair is usually the re- sult of partial oxidation of the melanin pig- ment. This color was seen in a large proportion of the Semna sample, and also noted by Titlbachova and Titlbach (‘77) on Egyptian material, where it also may have resulted from the mummification process. However, the large number of blond hairs that are not associated with the cuticular damage that bleaching produces, probably points to a sig- nificantly lighter-haired population than is now present in the Nubian region. Brothwell and Spearman (’63) noted genuinely blond ancient Egyptian samples using reflectance spectrophotometry
    Last edited by Der Phönix; August 22, 2013 at 06:09 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Oh boy, I'm getting some popcorn for this one...

    Also, don't you mean Nubian? Nobody thinks Numidians were black. At least I hope not.

  3. #3
    omzdog's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    inter- mediate between European and African samples.
    This doesn't mean white.


    In fact, humanity is still waiting for a response from the scientific community as to what 'white' even means and who is inclusive of this apparent group, which seems more a visual distinction than a genetic one. As in to say, difference is only skin deep my friend.

    Edit: You can't get popcorn, you are the insane arguer that we with delicious snacks are supposed to laugh at.
    Last edited by omzdog; August 22, 2013 at 05:42 PM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Quote Originally Posted by omzdog View Post
    This doesn't mean white.


    In fact, humanity is still waiting for a response from the scientific community as to what 'white' even means and who is inclusive of this apparent group, which seems more a visual distinction than a genetic one. As in to say, difference is only skin deep my friend.

    Edit: You can't get popcorn, you are the insane arguer that we with delicious snacks are supposed to laugh at.
    Cut the balderdash. Do you think there should be white Nubians or not?

  5. #5
    Der Phönix's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Quote Originally Posted by omzdog View Post
    What question?
    And what old people have I not met?
    This question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by omzdog View Post
    This doesn't mean white.

    In fact, humanity is still waiting for a response from the scientific community as to what 'white' even means and who is inclusive of this apparent group, which seems more a visual distinction than a genetic one. As in to say, difference is only skin deep my friend.

    Edit: You can't get popcorn, you are the insane arguer that we with delicious snacks are supposed to laugh at.
    Cut the balderdash. Do you think there should be white Nubians or not?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Oh, it's one of those threads. Personally, I think it's a bit ridiculous to get offended if they didn't get the skin colour on certain units completely right. It's still a game people, nothing to lose your panties over. And I dare say it, even if they get it wrong, there will be mods to fix those problems

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    Lavrentivs's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Do you mean Nubians?

    The thing is here, as I have said before, this matter of race is a very delicate subject in this day and age. I don't think we should be perusing any sort of racial agenda, but merely present things as they were historically, as good hard evidence suggests.

    Unfortunately I can see things kicking off on this thread, but we'll see. It was kinda my fault that things escalated and went off-topic in the 'black legionaries' thread, so I'll stay quiet for this one

  8. #8

    Default Re: Will there be white Numidians?

    Yeah, that thread was kind of racist, and not for the reasons you think it was racist. Saying that a black person could or could not have been a legionary based on historical or plausible historical facts is not raciest. Neither is saying a white person could or could not have been a Numidian.

    What is racist is saying just because a person has a sun tan, that they are black, have "Congolese" ancestary and thus are not Italian or Roman.

    What is racist is saying that anyone who claims that an Italian or Roman can have dark colored skin is anti-Italian or anti_Roman.

    In the end, it is all freaking stupid because we're all freaking human beings. Deal with it.

  9. #9
    Daily's Avatar Flingin' ma mace son
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Clear warning. Stay on topic.
    Last edited by Daily; August 22, 2013 at 06:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Ok, Imma do this. On topic. On *breaths in* topic.

    Ok.

    I'm a big reader of history and am quite knowledgeable. So I shall answer your question. First of all the Numidians were a north african people that also lived in modern north Sudan and they were known as Nubians here. So basically I believe that Numidians migrated south of Egypt. Now the original Numidians were I think descended from CeltoIberians and Carthaginians merceneries (something like that). They were kicked out of Numidia after the defeat of Carthage. From there they migrated to south of Egypt. There they became the "Nubians" - which is I think Egyptian slang for Numidian. There they started to marry with local Africans and eventually their descendants turned black by the time the Pyramids were being built. So I think in the Roman time frame there should be a mix of black AND celtoiberian Nubians, since they were not fully black yet.

    I hope that answered your question!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus041 View Post
    Ok, Imma do this. On topic. On *breaths in* topic.

    Ok.

    I'm a big reader of history and am quite knowledgeable. So I shall answer your question. First of all the Numidians were a north african people that also lived in modern north Sudan and they were known as Nubians here. So basically I believe that Numidians migrated south of Egypt. Now the original Numidians were I think descended from CeltoIberians and Carthaginians merceneries (something like that). They were kicked out of Numidia after the defeat of Carthage. From there they migrated to south of Egypt. There they became the "Nubians" - which is I think Egyptian slang for Numidian. There they started to marry with local Africans and eventually their descendants turned black by the time the Pyramids were being built. So I think in the Roman time frame there should be a mix of black AND celtoiberian Nubians, since they were not fully black yet.

    I hope that answered your question!
    I certainly did not know of a link between the Numidians and the Nubians (Numidian in the previous thread name was a typo). If that is true, it would be very interesting. The Numidians are a Berber people though, and not Celtic.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    I certainly did not know of a link between the Numidians and the Nubians (Numidian in the previous thread name was a typo). If that is true, it would be very interesting. The Numidians are a Berber people though, and not Celtic.
    Surely you're not serious. Surely.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by omzdog View Post
    My comment was deleted for some reason.


    But it went along the lines of me being able to answer your question.
    By saying you are not willing to answer the question, you are not answering the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by omzdog View Post
    Surely you're not serious. Surely.
    Why would I not be serious?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavrentivs View Post
    oh, that's interesting, I've always seen them portrayed as black warriors, usually on horseback.

    Can you remember where you got this info from? I'd like to read about it myself
    I believe the notion of a pure Sub-Saharan black population of Nubians largely stems from the movie the Gladiator.

    Very little info about it unfortunately. Downloaded the document some time ago and googled it again. In general, I reccomend books about Egyptic civilization from pre-1980, as they are usually not bloated with PC-sensitivity.
    Last edited by Der Phönix; August 22, 2013 at 06:26 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Der Phönix View Post
    By saying you are not willing to answer the question, you are not answering the question.
    I believe the notion of a pure Sub-Saharan black population of Nubians largely stems from the movie the Gladiator.
    Righto, one Rusell Crowe movie is responsible for why we apparently in your mind all think Nubians were black.
    Excellent cultural research.

    How have the mods given this thread so much playtime?
    Last edited by omzdog; August 22, 2013 at 06:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus041 View Post
    Ok, Imma do this. On topic. On *breaths in* topic.

    Ok.

    I'm a big reader of history and am quite knowledgeable. So I shall answer your question. First of all the Numidians were a north african people that also lived in modern north Sudan and they were known as Nubians here. So basically I believe that Numidians migrated south of Egypt. Now the original Numidians were I think descended from CeltoIberians and Carthaginians merceneries (something like that). They were kicked out of Numidia after the defeat of Carthage. From there they migrated to south of Egypt. There they became the "Nubians" - which is I think Egyptian slang for Numidian. There they started to marry with local Africans and eventually their descendants turned black by the time the Pyramids were being built. So I think in the Roman time frame there should be a mix of black AND celtoiberian Nubians, since they were not fully black yet.

    I hope that answered your question!
    Your theory doesn't make sense to me, first of all the Pyramids were build in Egypt long before the Defeat of Carthage and what Der Phonix allready stated is that the Numidians were Berbers or closely related to the Berbers.

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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    oh, that's interesting, I've always seen them portrayed as black warriors, usually on horseback.

    Can you remember where you got this info from? I'd like to read about it myself

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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lavrentivs View Post
    oh, that's interesting, I've always seen them portrayed as black warriors, usually on horseback.

    Can you remember where you got this info from? I'd like to read about it myself
    To be perfectly honest I read it somewhere on wikipedia. So don't quote me on it.

    I just can't afford books.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    Okay, I'd like to clear some things up.

    Numidian - This is a civilization/culture of people who lived in the areas of what is now northern Algeria and a small part of western Tunisia (what would be west of Carthage). The area/civilization/culture often had split alliances between both Carthage and Rome during the Punic Wars 200 BC to 50 BC or so.

    Nubian - This is a civilization/culture of people who lived in the Nile region of what is now northern Sudan and Southern Egypt (what would be south of Alexandria). The Nubian civilization/culture is much older than the Numidian one as it can be dated as far back as 5000 BC. Nubian history is very intertwined with Egyptian history.

  19. #19
    Daily's Avatar Flingin' ma mace son
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    Default Re: Will there be white Nubians?

    That was fun while it lasted. Thread closed.
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