So, were there black legionairs?

[smoke]

Yesterday I read that emperor Septimius Severus eventually granted all the men within the Roman empire full citizenship, thus enabling them become a legionair. In theory this would open up the possibility of black people to serve in the Roman army. Did they? I've never read anything supporting OR opposing the idea. Anyone here know if there actually were black legionairs? If so, should CA represant them in the game?

[Gelston]

If there were, it wasn't in great number and certainly not an entire legion, you have to remember, Northern Africa isn't black, wasn't true then and it isn't now (Sorry to people saying Septimius Severus was a black African! He wasn't!). I don't doubt that they had black or very dark people serving in the Auxiliaries in great numbers, however.

[Lavrentivs]

If there were, it wasn't in great number and certainly not an entire legion, you have to remember, Northern Africa isn't black, wasn't true then and it isn't now (Sorry to people saying Septimius Severus was a black African! He wasn't!). I don't doubt that they had black or very dark people serving in the Auxiliaries in great numbers, however.

This.

However, even in the republic you would have gotten some very dark Romans. As I have said before, I have friends from Sicilia and Napoli, and they get VERY dark under the sun. Also I remember the one time I was in Trieste, I was in the square and saw a group of very dark men shouting and laughing, and because of their skin colour and dark hair I automatically assumed they would be indians or something, but no. They came closer, were speaking in a very strong Sicilian dialect and they had Mediterranean facial features.

In Italy, as in other countries, you get a massive variety of people. I am half Italian, I have olive skin, green eyes and sandy blonde hair (yes this could be because of my English side of the family, but a lot of my italian family members are blonde too). My mother has brown eyes and black hair, and her father has pale skin and blue eyes.

Obviously, since the ancient period, Italy would have had a massive influx of other races which would have influenced how Italians look today. But we know there were fair haired Italians (Caesar and Octavius for example) even back then. Similarly, there would have been a massive variation in skin colour.

The stereotypical image of the aquiline, olive-skinned Roman with a deep brow is exactly that, a stereotype.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

This.

However, even in the republic you would have gotten some very dark Romans. As I have said before, I have friends from Sicilia and Napoli, and they get VERY dark under the sun. Also I remember the one time I was in Trieste, I was in the square and saw a group of very dark men shouting and laughing, and because of their skin colour and dark hair I automatically assumed they would be indians or something, but no. They came closer, were speaking in a very strong Sicilian dialect and they had Mediterranean facial features.

In Italy, as in other countries, you get a massive variety of people. I am half Italian, I have olive skin, green eyes and sandy blonde hair (yes this could be because of my English side of the family, but a lot of my italian family members are blonde too). My mother has brown eyes and black hair, and her father has pale skin and blue eyes.

Obviously, since the ancient period, Italy would have had a massive influx of other races which would have influenced how Italians look today. But we know there were fair haired Italians (Caesar and Octavius for example) even back then. Similarly, there would have been a massive variation in skin colour.

The stereotypical image of the aquiline, olive-skinned Roman with a deep brow is exactly that, a stereotype.

Again with that Nonsense Racial claims !
First of all Romans are not Sicilians
Second I was born in Naples and I am more white than most of germans !
Third Its just a stupid racist misconception of Hollywood crap Mafia movies and some German ignorant gossip or football magazines that Italians are represented like North african Olivaster Skin.
the only Sicilians with that tone are the few ones descendant from Arabs and it was way after Roman empire collapsed !

Anyone with a minimum base of culture and knowledge of ancient Rome and actual Italy would know that Romans where very light skinned and featured red haired (rufus ) blond haired ( flavus ) and most had Blue eyes ( Like Silla ) ....

Enough With those stupid racist stereothypes!

If CA made a Black Legionary ( as it seems ) especially in that timeframe and considering the Roman genetic identity and the citizenry required for entering the legion would be another of the many historical mistakes beeing present in the game !

[Lavrentivs]

Again with that Nonsense Racial claims !
First of all Romans are not Sicilians
Second I was born in Naples and I am more white than most of germans !
Third Its just a stupid racist misconception of Hollywood crap Mafia movies and some German ignorant gossip or football magazines that Italians are represented like North african Olivaster Skin.
the only Sicilians with that tone are the few ones descendant from Arabs and it was way after Roman empire collapsed !

Anyone with a minimum base of culture and knowledge of ancient Rome and actual Italy would know that Romans where very light skinned and featured red haired (rufus ) blond haired ( flavus ) and most had Blue eyes ( Like Silla ) ....

Enough With those stupid racist stereothypes!

If CA made a Black Legionary ( as it seems ) especially in that timeframe and considering the Roman genetic identity and the citizenry required for entering the legion would be another of the many historical mistakes beeing present in the game !

When are you going to understand, that I can't be making offensive racial claims toward Italians when I am half Italian myself and have also visited and lived in Italy for a while, before I came back to England. What I am saying is based on what I have seen from personal experience, and my personal experience is that SOME PEOPLE HAVE DARK SKIN, AND OTHERS DO NOT.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

When are you going to understand, that I can't be making offensive racial claims toward Italians when I am half Italian myself and have also visited and lived in Italy for a while, before I came back to England. What I am saying is based on what I have seen from personal experience, and my personal experience is that SOME PEOPLE HAVE DARK SKIN, AND OTHERS DO NOT.

Stop saying falsitudes for the sake of throwing false stereothypes on Italians !

Italians are Light Skinned end of Story !

if you are dark skinned then you probably have some African Blood ancstry and surely not of Italian one!

There is nothing Racist in that its you that are bringing it on that level by affirming falsitudes and making racistic distinctions by Claiming that Italians are "Dark Skinned" like that :

!

The Skin color placed by CA on the LEFT guy is the one of an Abyssinian , a Erithrean , Meroitic or Sudanese or even Egyptian , not even N african or Olivaster !!!
Its a black African color!

Italians are White people End of Story!

Romans above more even due to non cultural mixing !

Stop claiming absurd things :

"I been on Holiday with my parents in Italy on the beach and were all DARK !!

I really can't even take with any seriousness such kind of Claims!

[killua]

Again with that Nonsense Racial claims !
First of all Romans are not Sicilians
Second I was born in Naples and I am more white than most of germans !
Third Its just a stupid racist misconception of Hollywood crap Mafia movies and some German ignorant gossip or football magazines that Italians are represented like North african Olivaster Skin.
the only Sicilians with that tone are the few ones descendant from Arabs and it was way after Roman empire collapsed !

Anyone with a minimum base of culture and knowledge of ancient Rome and actual Italy would know that Romans where very light skinned and featured red haired (rufus ) blond haired ( flavus ) and most had Blue eyes ( Like Silla ) ....

Enough With those stupid racist stereothypes!

If CA made a Black Legionary ( as it seems ) especially in that timeframe and considering the Roman genetic identity and the citizenry required for entering the legion would be another of the many historical mistakes beeing present in the game !

Calm down bro. Italians are (in average) more tanned than germans just as kongolese people are more tanned than italians (in average). Simple fact, nothing racist in that. What makes this racist in your opinion ? Do you know what racism is ? Have you ever been treated unfairly because people think you are olive-skinned ? Refrain from using words you obviously do not know the meaning of.

Also, CA have nothing to do in this discussion, the fact that they made a black legionary is 100% speculative and in no way official.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

Again with that Nonsense Racial claims !
First of all Romans are not Sicilians
Second I was born in Naples and I am more white than most of germans !
Third Its just a stupid racist misconception of Hollywood crap Mafia movies and some German ignorant gossip or football magazines that Italians are represented like North african Olivaster Skin.
the only Sicilians with that tone are the few ones descendant from Arabs and it was way after Roman empire collapsed !

Anyone with a minimum base of culture and knowledge of ancient Rome and actual Italy would know that Romans where very light skinned and featured red haired (rufus ) blond haired ( flavus ) and most had Blue eyes ( Like Silla ) ....

Enough With those stupid racist stereothypes!

If CA made a Black Legionary ( as it seems ) especially in that timeframe and considering the Roman genetic identity and the citizenry required for entering the legion would be another of the many historical mistakes beeing present in the game !

Sure the ancient Romans were lighter than the modern Italians that is true, but that is because the modern Italians are not Romans but Moors.

[Lavrentivs]

Sure the ancient Romans were lighter than the modern Italians that is true, but that is because the modern Italians are not Romans but Moors.

There is a whole mix nowadays mate. You get very dark skinned people in Sicily because of the moors, but you can also get lighter-skinned people there because of the Normans. Also, in the north you have tall fair people with Austrian/German blood, so its a mix nowadays, it probably was even then.

Lets not forget, even in the ancient period we had Phonecians and Hellenes is Sicily and Magna Graecia, Cisalpine Celts, Veneti and Illyrians in the north and the Adriatic.

The idea of a pure race is utterly ludicrous in my opinion, as I have said in previous posts, there is a whole variety among everyone really.

[The Despondent Mind]

CA won't create black legionaries because they are racist and biased .

[Nordmann]

CA won't create black legionaries because they are racist and biased .

I suppose you want history books revised to fit your world view as well?

[Swerg]

As I recall, the Romans didn't really care about skin color. Given that there were Roman citizens of every conceivable ethnicity from western Asia to northern Africa to Europe.

I believe by the mid-Imperial period, the number of non-Latins in the Roman military had grown to exceed the number of "real" Romans. I seem to remember reading somewhere that there are at least eight known high officers who were known to be black.

It's important to keep in mind that the idea of blacks as an "inferior race" only really became popular long after the fall of the western Empire. IIRC it was around the mid-15th century when the Portuguese started taking over formerly Arabic plantations in the Atlantic that people started inventing the story that blacks were somehow not really humans, to make themselves feel better about the fact that they were basically purchasing mass quantities of slaves and using them as expendable beasts of burden.

Certainly there WAS racism prior to that, there's no denying it, but it was typically of the "oh, those people are weird," sort (and was generally applied by the Romans to everybody, regardless of skin color,) rather than the "they're sub-human" sort.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

As I recall, the Romans didn't really care about skin color. Given that there were Roman citizens of every conceivable ethnicity from western Asia to northern Africa to Europe.

I believe by the mid-Imperial period, the number of non-Latins in the Roman military had grown to exceed the number of "real" Romans. I seem to remember reading somewhere that there are at least eight known high officers who were known to be black.

It's important to keep in mind that the idea of blacks as an "inferior race" only really became popular long after the fall of the western Empire. IIRC it was around the mid-15th century when the Portuguese started taking over formerly Arabic plantations in the Atlantic that people started inventing the story that blacks were somehow not really humans, to make themselves feel better about the fact that they were basically purchasing mass quantities of slaves and using them as expendable beasts of burden.

Certainly there WAS racism prior to that, there's no denying it, but it was typically of the "oh, those people are weird," sort (and was generally applied by the Romans to everybody, regardless of skin color,) rather than the "they're sub-human" sort.

African does not equal black, I am pretty sure that those "African" soldiers were olive skinned Libyans. The only access to black people the Roman Empire had was through the trade routes with the Ethiopians and the Nubians, the people who entered that way were either traders or slaves so not eligable for recruiting into the army.

[killua]

Knowing that all citizens could enroll in the legions and that there was black citizens. My vote is, Yes. As far as I know Romans didn't run too much on racial discrimination so a black citizen from the southern reaches of the empire would probably have the same rights to enlist as a ginger citizen from the northern reaches of the empire. My impression of roman civilization was that is was very tolerant to other appearances and polytheistic religions. Was there really any discrimination in the Roman Empire based on origin (that is, between men of equal class) ?

[Gelston]

Knowing that all citizens could enroll in the legions and that there was black citizens. My vote is, Yes. As far as I know Romans didn't run too much on racial discrimination so a black citizen from the southern reaches of the empire would probably have the same rights to enlist as a ginger citizen from the northern reaches of the empire. My impression of roman civilization was that is was very tolerant to other appearances and polytheistic religions. Was there really any discrimination in the Roman Empire based on origin (that is, between men of equal class) ?

The Romans cared mostly about loyalty to Rome, or rather, the State. You could be purple and they wouldn't have cared, so long as you were loyal. The Jews and the Christians got in trouble with Rome a lot because they'd place things above the State.

Edited to add: As far as origin, well, obviously at different times people of one city would feel superior to others. A well connected patrician from Rome would probably think himself of a higher order than someone from the countryside, for instance.

[Jester]

yea, i guess so. romans were the least racist people in history :3

[Biggus Splenus]

yea, i guess so. romans were the least racist people in history :3

Racism as it is today definitely didn't seem to be around during ancient times. I think it might have appeared during the time of religious reformation and intercontinental colonisation, because that just seems most likely for other ethnics and people to form rivalries, and even hate against each other.

So it wasn't just Rome that wasn't racist, but probably all ancient people

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 4

[Rumblefish]

yea, i guess so. romans were the least racist people in history :3

True, they didn't care who they killed.

[killua]

It's important to keep in mind that the idea of blacks as an "inferior race" only really became popular long after the fall of the western Empire. IIRC it was around the mid-15th century when the Portuguese started taking over formerly Arabic plantations in the Atlantic that people started inventing the story that blacks were somehow not really humans, to make themselves feel better about the fact that they were basically purchasing mass quantities of slaves and using them as expendable beasts of burden.

That just disgusts me to the very core, thinking that some poor s find meaning in their life in our modern times perpetuating this tradition is unbelievable. The romans may not have gotten everything right but the atleast nailed that aspect of society as Gelston described it.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Yesterday I read that emperor Septimius Severus eventually granted all the men within the Roman empire full citizenship, thus enabling them become a legionair. In theory this would open up the possibility of black people to serve in the Roman army. Did they? I've never read anything supporting OR opposing the idea. Anyone here know if there actually were black legionairs? If so, should CA represant them in the game?

Seeing as you haven't spelled "Legionaire" correctly, I should take this opportunity to tell you the word you are looking for is LEGIONARY. Legionaires are French. Legionaries are Roman. Only one of these gave special attention to blacks. I'll let you guess which one.