Anyone else tired of this?

[King_Azzole]

I am sure most armys in the past didnt have half of the army composed of these annoying hypaspists. Its a plague with every successor state that has access to them and it gets very annoying to fight armys of them. I feel like giving them 1 hp and 1 attack out of spite and raising the upkeep to 300000. Argh *pulls out hair*

[The Walrus]

Just raise there recruitment/upkeep cost or make a hidden resource so only certain cities can recruit them.

[King_Azzole]

Just raise there recruitment/upkeep cost or make a hidden resource so only certain cities can recruit them.

That does not solve the issue with the mod itself. They are currently roughly 600 upkeep. I think it has to do with the 2hps though I am not sure as to why the AI favors them so.

[Pre]

Their not all that hard to take out tho.

[King_Azzole]

Their not all that hard to take out tho.

If you enjoy fighting an army of 200-300 "leet" soldiers vs your 2000-3000 men than fine. But I don't. I would prefer to fight an army of "normal" soldiers.

[The Walrus]

If you enjoy fighting an army of 200-300 "leet" soldiers vs your 2000-3000 men than fine. But I don't. I would prefer to fight an army of "normal" soldiers.

Take them out or use a hidden resource so they can only be recruited in certain cities. Here is a link of how to do that.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43747

[King_Azzole]

Take them out or use a hidden resource so they can only be recruited in certain cities. Here is a link of how to do that.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=43747

I understand. What I am trying to convey here is a flaw in the mod itself. It is not historical or even plausable that a successer army would field half of its forces as elite units. I do apprecaite the help you are attempting to render however.

[The Walrus]

I understand. What I am trying to convey here is a flaw in the mod itself. It is not historical or even plausable that a successer army would field half of its forces as elite units. I do apprecaite the help you are attempting to render however.

Aye. I know what your saying. Perhaps in RTR7 they will fix it or make a hidden resource. :crossesfingers:

Also try

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60692

This might help but remember to back up those files!!

[xelnanga]

I understand. What I am trying to convey here is a flaw in the mod itself. It is not historical or even plausable that a successer army would field half of its forces as elite units. I do apprecaite the help you are attempting to render however.

One word.

Hardcoded.

[mmmrrrr]

Warm them up with archers and javelins to remove their first hitpoint, after that they're not so cocky.

[King_Azzole]

Warm them up with archers and javelins to remove their first hitpoint, after that they're not so cocky.

Great comment! Yeah it kind of makes me go "woah" when I see the little puny group of 40 men run up alone to my 900 horse archers. I found the best strategy is to charge them with my generals unit (parthians) and that will inflict about 5-10 casualties, then I run through them so they expose the rear to my horse archers, who then happily send 900 arrows into there arses. 1-2 volleys usually finish them off. It's not the trouble I am having fighting them, it's the lack of realism that makes me go

[The Walrus]

Great comment! Yeah it kind of makes me go "woah" when I see the little puny group of 40 men run up alone to my 900 horse archers. I found the best strategy is to charge them with my generals unit (parthians) and that will inflict about 5-10 casualties, then I run through them so they expose the rear to my horse archers, who then happily send 900 arrows into there arses. 1-2 volleys usually finish them off. It's not the trouble I am having fighting them, it's the lack of realism that makes me go

CRAZY!!!!!!!!!

[mmmrrrr]

I might be sort of biased since I'm right now playing a Bactrian campaign and I do just that, and then when they come close I send some lowquality infantry and elephants (I send the infantry in first to make sure they don't throw their javelins at my Elephants) at them - and they pose very little threat. In my experience the enemy will always send the Hypaspists as sort of an advance guard, so you'll have quite some time before the rest of the army arrives. They are much more troublesome when they don't arrive before the rest of the army.

[Eird-Way]

Has anyone tried scripting the AI to build plausible armies? As in, take X denars and give Y troops at the capital? Sure, it would be 0trec and wouldn't drain population, but their mere presence would be a balm, and they'd still draw upkeep (taking away money used for uber-armies).

I really do think elites should be limited to home provinces, period.

[Warmaker]

I myself had to do some modifications.

I was disgusted by the spamming of these troops by the Hellenic Factions. I should be facing an army of Phalanx Pikemen, not an army of Hypaspists.

Firstly, I'm totally against non-general, non-elephant troops with multiple HPs, so I brought all down to 1 HP.

You stab a man, ANY man, peasant, king, Legionary, barbarian, or Spartan... in the stomach, and they will die. Multi-HP units? They say, "Ow" and kill the attacker, and continue on to slay even more.

Secondly, to make up for any elite status, I increased other stat areas.

Thirdly, I increased the recruitment / training time. I made it 4-6, depending on the mod I'm using (increasing the recruitment time is the best thing to do just to prevent the spamming).

What this has done for me in facing the Hellenic Factions:
* Pikemen / Phalanx units are the predominant units... that's more historical.
* The Hypaspists can't ignore tactical blunders anymore: A Cavalry charge from the flank and rear should be devastating to ALL units. Multi-HP units take a small handful of casualties then turn around and kill the attackers.
* I don't mind the fast speed of the Hypaspists. But I do mind them shrugging off all missile fire as they charge across the field. Their high defenses, multi-hp, and fast movement totally negate missile fire. Remove the multi-hp, and they must acknowledge missile fire properly. Otherwise, they must pay for their blunders.

Some may say, "Why don't you do this to the Roman heavy infantry?"
The answer is simple. The Romans fielded large numbers of heavy infantry, which were supported by Allied / Aux. Troops. The Heavy Infantry is the centerpiece and major component of a Roman army for most of the history of the Legions.

The Successor Kingdoms, on the other hand, grew increasingly more dependent on the Phalanx to win the battle, whereas during Alexander and Philip's day, their armies were much more balanced (esp. in cavalry strength).

[Dramascus]

I myself had to do some modifications.

I was disgusted by the spamming of these troops by the Hellenic Factions. I should be facing an army of Phalanx Pikemen, not an army of Hypaspists.

Firstly, I'm totally against non-general, non-elephant troops with multiple HPs, so I brought all down to 1 HP.

You stab a man, ANY man, peasant, king, Legionary, barbarian, or Spartan... in the stomach, and they will die. Multi-HP units? They say, "Ow" and kill the attacker, and continue on to slay even more.

Secondly, to make up for any elite status, I increased other stat areas.

Thirdly, I increased the recruitment / training time. I made it 4-6, depending on the mod I'm using (increasing the recruitment time is the best thing to do just to prevent the spamming).

i think EB handles elites well by simply reducing the amount of men in each unit. for example, levy militia units tend to have 240, standard trained infantry has 160, while elites tend to have 100 or less men per unit. they pretty much all have 1hp, what you really pay for with elites is morale and armour.

the actual upkeep costs are pretty similar for a levy unit and an elite unit because there are many less men, unlike how it is now where a decent normal unit tends to cost 120-240 while elites cost 450-600. from the players persepctive there isnt really much point in training elites since you can do better with 3 normal units compared to 1 elite unit for the same cost.

i think that increasing the training time is a very good idea, for both player and AI. besides the problem of elite armies it also would serve to make battles a lot more descisive.

[evil-SHADOW]

I think, in order to compensate the loss of multi-hp, hypaspists and other same units must have their defence skill at least 10-15 more than they have usually.

Does anyone have the information what shield did they use? Hoplon? Aspis? Thureos? Or something different? How correct is the fact they have 7(8) shield rating?

Armour. I know they were less armoured (an more mobile) than the phalangites were. Due to this, how correct is their 7(8) armour rating? Seleucid "Gold Shields" have 8 armour and the other phalangites have 6(7) armour.

[mcantu]

I like that idea...1 hp and higher armor and morale

[Amur_Tiger]

* The Hypaspists can't ignore tactical blunders anymore: A Cavalry charge from the flank and rear should be devastating to ALL units. Multi-HP units take a small handful of casualties then turn around and kill the attackers.

This quite simply isn't the case, I've broken Hypaspists on a regular basis by taking them from behind with cavalry, they're tough, and my cavalry takes losses but it's doable.
On a whole I do agree that these units should be toned down, especially since the successors already get such a generous variaty of units already. I do have one point on how to treat elite units though. With most lower unit sizes are fine, they reduce the usefulness of the unit proportionally, which is cool, however with phalanx units it's horrible. For the player trying to shoe-horn an undersized phalanx into a battleline is already somewhat challanging and definitly time-consuming during the set-up phase. If you require just one manuver out of the group it's rendered completely useless. So please, for elite phalanx units, make them cost more, make them take 4 turns or more to build but don't hack their unit size down because for me at least, I'll never use them in battle.

[Xraider]

I know when you think that you killed every enemy men but... They are alive and they are coming like zombies !!!!! now the 2 hp system is really kinda dumb to me... You have super duper immortal parthian cavalry and your enemy as a principe unit whit 0 exp , you hit him from the back but he gets up and kicks your ass ... Now thats really stupid ! and the hypaspistai i never used them in the alexander expansion , i sended my Immortal heavy kick ass alexander companion cavalry which kicked the ass out of an entire persian army anyways i think that you need to incrise the cost of it and make it longer to build ;] Piece of cake