Arrian's mysterious cavalry arrow-shooting machine in Tactical Manual / τεχνη τακτικη

[Maklodes]

43.1

ἐπὶ τούτῳ μέντοι ἤδη πολύτροποι ἐξακοντισμοὶ γίγνονται ἢ κούφων παλτῶν ἢ καὶ βελῶν, οὐκ ἀπὸ τόξου τούτων γε ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ μηχανῆς ἀφιεμένων, ἢ λίθων ἐκ χειρὸς ἢ ἐκ σφενδόνης ἐπὶ τὸν σκοπόν, ὃς μέσος τοῖν δυοῖν, οἷν ἤδη μνήμην ἐποιησάμην, ἵσταται. καὶ ἐνταῦθα αὖ καλόν, εἰ συντρίψειαν τοῖς λίθοις τὸν σκοπόν, ὅ δὲ τύχοι οὐκ εὐμαρὴς συντριβῆναι.

(A. G. Roo's translation by way of Ann Hyland follows)

There are, furthermore, various forms of shooting, employing light javelins or missiles, the latter shot not from a bow but from a machine, or stones thrown from the hand or from a sling at a midway between the two I have already mentioned. Here again it is a fine feat if they can smash the target with stones, for it is not easy to smash.

My question: what's this mysterious shooting machine? Was it a crossbow? Did the Romans use mounted crossbowmen? Was it some sort of miniaturized torsion ballista? It seems like it would be hard to miniaturize a ballista enough to be used on horseback, but maybe it could be done. Was it something else entirely? Did Arrian just make it up? Any crazy ideas?

[Biggus Splenus]

Well the Greeks invented a crossbow-like weapon in 399 BCE, maybe the Romans secretly used it It could just be referring to one of their siege weapons, or maybe, it's referring to the Sassanian's weapon.


Image from Amazon, best I can find, sorry

[Maklodes]

I think a gastraphetes clearly couldn't be used mounted. The spanning method involved pushing it down against the ground with one's stomach (hence the name). Of course, other more cavalry-friendly loading methods along the lines of a wippe or goat's foot could have been developed, although I don't think we have much evidence.

As for that Sassanid... thing, I don't know whether that's real or fantasy. Cool looking, though.

Some sort of crossbow loaded with a lever or something seems most probable.

[Hanny]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastraphetes

[Legio]

43.1

ἐπὶ τούτῳ μέντοι ἤδη πολύτροποι ἐξακοντισμοὶ γίγνονται ἢ κούφων παλτῶν ἢ καὶ βελῶν, οὐκ ἀπὸ τόξου τούτων γε ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ μηχανῆς ἀφιεμένων, ἢ λίθων ἐκ χειρὸς ἢ ἐκ σφενδόνης ἐπὶ τὸν σκοπόν, ὃς μέσος τοῖν δυοῖν, οἷν ἤδη μνήμην ἐποιησάμην, ἵσταται. καὶ ἐνταῦθα αὖ καλόν, εἰ συντρίψειαν τοῖς λίθοις τὸν σκοπόν, ὅ δὲ τύχοι οὐκ εὐμαρὴς συντριβῆναι.

(A. G. Roo's translation by way of Ann Hyland follows)

There are, furthermore, various forms of shooting, employing light javelins or missiles, the latter shot not from a bow but from a machine, or stones thrown from the hand or from a sling at a midway between the two I have already mentioned. Here again it is a fine feat if they can smash the target with stones, for it is not easy to smash.

My question: what's this mysterious shooting machine? Was it a crossbow? Did the Romans use mounted crossbowmen? Was it some sort of miniaturized torsion ballista? It seems like it would be hard to miniaturize a ballista enough to be used on horseback, but maybe it could be done. Was it something else entirely? Did Arrian just make it up? Any crazy ideas?

Can you show me more of the Greek? Unless I am missing something, the lines quoted say nothing about cavalry. Is the passage around it about cavalry?

[Maklodes]

Can you show me more of the Greek? Unless I am missing something, the lines quoted say nothing about cavalry. Is the passage around it about cavalry?

Ah: 43.1 doesn't include any references to the fact that they're on horses or anything. Anyway, I should have linked. Here's a link to 43.1, from the Perseus digital library.

The overall context shows that this is a cavalry exercise. E.g. Chapter 42:

ἑκούσιον, ἐνταῦθα δὴ ὅσοι ἀγαθοὶ στρατιᾶς ἡγεμόνες, ὀνομαστὶ ἀνακαλεῖσθαι κελεύουσι πάντας ἐφεξῆς τοὺς ἱππέας, δεκάδαρχον πρῶτον καὶ διμοιρίτην ἐπὶ τούτῳ καὶ ὅστις ἐν ἡμιολίᾳ μισθοφορᾷ, ἔπειτα τοὺς ἐφεξῆς τῆς δεκαδαρχίας. καὶ οὕτω διὰ πασῶν τῶν δεκαδαρχιῶν ἡ κλῆσις γίγνεται.

τὸν κληθέντα δὲ χρὴ ὁμοῦ μὲν ὑπακοῦσαι τῷ καλοῦντι μεγάλῃ τῇ βοῇ ὅτι ῾πάρειμἰ, ὁμοῦ δ᾽ ἐξελαύνειν τὸν ἵππον τρεῖς λόγχας φέροντα. καὶ τὴν μὲν πρώτην ἀπὸ ἄκρου τοῦ χωρίου τοῦ ἐσκαμμένου ἐξακοντίζειν ὡς ἐπὶ τὸν σκοπόν, τὴν δευτέραν δὲ ἀπὸ αὐτοῦ βήματος, καὶ ταύτην ἔτι ὀρθῷ τῷ ἵππῳ: τὴν τρίτην δέ, εἰ τὰ ἔννομα καὶ πρὸς τοῦ βασιλέως τεταγμένα δρῴη, ἐγκλίνοντος ἐπὶ δεξιὰν τοῦ ἵππου, ἐς τὸν ἄλλον σκοπόν, ὃν ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ δὴ τούτῳ κατὰ πρόσταξιν τοῦ βασιλέως ἐς ἐκδοχὴν τῆς τρίτης λόγχης ἱστᾶσιν.

ἥδ᾽ ἔστιν βολὴ ἡ πασῶν χαλεπωτάτη, εἴ πως πρὶν πάντη ἀποστραφῆναι τὸν ἵππον, ἐν αὐτῇ ἔτι τῇ ἐπικαμπῇ γίγνοιτο. ἡ γὰρ δὴ ξύνημα τῇ Κελτῶν φωνῇ καλουμένη

ταύτῃ δὴ ἄφεσις γίγνεται, ἐπείπερ οὐδὲ ἀσιδήρῳ ἀκοντίῳ εὐμαρὴς ἀκοντίζεσθαι. ἤδη δέ τις ὑπὸ ὀξύτητός τε καὶ φιλοτιμίας καὶ τέσσαρας λόγχας ὀρθῷ τῷ ἵππῳ ἐπὶ τὸν πρῶτον σκοπὸν ἐξακοντίσαι ἤνυσεν, ἢ τὰς τρεῖς μὲν ὀρθῷ τῷ ἵππῳ, τὴν τετάρτην δὲ ἐπιστρέφοντι, ὡς ὁ βασιλεὺς ἔταξεν.

ἔνθα δὴ ὅ τε ἀγαθὸς ἀκοντιστὴς καὶ ὁ κακὸς μάλιστα πάντων διαφαίνονται, ἅτε οὐκ ἐν στοίχῳ ἀδιακρίτῳ οὐδὲ ἐν θορύβῳ δρωμένου τοῦ ἔργου. καὶ ἥτις ἐπέλασις τοὺς πλείστους παράσχοιτο τῶν λογχῶν τῇ βολῇ διαπρέποντας, ταύτην ἐγὼ μᾶλλον ἤ τινα ἄλλην ἐπῄνεσα, ὡς πρὸς ἀλήθειαν τῶν πολεμικῶν ἔργων ἠσκημένην.

[Biggus Splenus]

Can you show me more of the Greek? Unless I am missing something, the lines quoted say nothing about cavalry. Is the passage around it about cavalry?

I was thinking the same thing

PS. You have an insane amount of rep, I think you might need one more

[Biggus Splenus]

That certainly is strange, and I'm afraid I cannot help you

[Legio]

I'll try to find a reliable textual commentary. This is a fascinating passage!

[neoptolemos]

I am really surprised Maklodes! Do you know ancient Greek yourself?

[Maklodes]

I am really surprised Maklodes! Do you know ancient Greek yourself?

Nah. I was just copy-pasting from the Perseus digital library and bolding a few words like "ἱππέας."

UPDATE: I should note that this thread is more for speculation and fan-wank and such than actually hoping for a definitive resolution. I don't think anyone really knows what Arrian was talking about.

[AnthoniusII]

43.1ἐπὶ τούτῳ μέντοι ἤδη πολύτροποι ἐξακοντισμοὶ γίγνονται ἢ κούφων παλτῶν ἢ καὶ βελῶν, οὐκ ἀπὸ τόξου τούτων γε ἀλλ᾽ ἀπὸ μηχανῆς ἀφιεμένων, ἢ λίθων ἐκ χειρὸς ἢ ἐκ σφενδόνης ἐπὶ τὸν σκοπόν, ὃς μέσος τοῖν δυοῖν, οἷν ἤδη μνήμην ἐποιησάμην, ἵσταται. καὶ ἐνταῦθα αὖ καλόν, εἰ συντρίψειαν τοῖς λίθοις τὸν σκοπόν, ὅ δὲ τύχοι οὐκ εὐμαρὴς συντριβῆναι. (A. G. Roo's translation by way of Ann Hyland follows) There are, furthermore, various forms of shooting, employing light javelins or missiles, the latter shot not from a bow but from a machine, or stones thrown from the hand or from a sling at a midway between the two I have already mentioned. Here again it is a fine feat if they can smash the target with stones, for it is not easy to smash. My question: what's this mysterious shooting machine? Was it a crossbow? Did the Romans use mounted crossbowmen? Was it some sort of miniaturized torsion ballista? It seems like it would be hard to miniaturize a ballista enough to be used on horseback, but maybe it could be done. Was it something else entirely? Did Arrian just make it up? Any crazy ideas?

1st of all the script does not mention "cavalry" machine..

2nd there was in a book the design of a balista made from Ptolemies to mount wall towers ussing a clip of 19 arrows and loading and launching ussing cams to reload:
Machine catapult of Dionisus of Alexandreia.
Saurces Filon Velopoiitika




EDIT: Please remember that Arrian leaved in the hellenistic era and not in the time of Alexander. He uses terms and descriptions close of what he sees to help his readers understand what he writes in his texts.

[Maklodes]

1st of all the script does not mention "cavalry" machine..

Well, it's pretty clear that these are cavalry exercises being described. In 44.1, Arrian writes "ταῦτα μὲν τοῖς Ῥωμαίων ἱππεῦσι τὰ συνήθη τε καὶ ἐκ παλαιοῦ ἀσκούμενα."

2nd there was in a book the design of a balista made from Ptolemies to mount wall towers ussing a clip of 19 arrows and loading and launching ussing cams to reload:
Machine catapult of Dionisus of Alexandreia.
Saurces Filon Velopoiitika

Looks neat!

EDIT: Please remember that Arrian leaved in the hellenistic era and not in the time of Alexander. He uses terms and descriptions close of what he sees to help his readers understand what he writes in his texts.

I don't think most people would consider the reign of Hadrian to still be the Hellenistic period.