Casse Units Underpowered?

[Team Sleep]

I've recently begun a new Casse campaign. It's always been one of my favorite campaigns and factions to play as. But in this time around I've finally played on Huge setting. As I've began migrating my forces into mainland Europe I've only engaged to factions other than the rebels. Romans & Swebi. I've been able to maintain my alliances w/ the other celtic tribes as well as Iberia & Carthage.

But as I've come back to this campaign I've noticed something. My line infantry seems to be melting away when pitted against any of those two opponents' own line infantry. It seems that at sometimes the only thing that I can do to balance out these differences are to always have a numerical advantage over my opponents. Without a rear or flank attack on any of their line infantry I can't hope to break them ore even stand up to them for any significant length of time. Having played various other campaigns and been victorious, (Pontus, KH, Luso) I have noticed that while all line infantry is not created equal, I've fared better with the latter. I understand the reason for adjusting stats in order to make results on the battle field more realistic. But seriously....What is going on w/ the Midland Spearmen? Usually I employ Spearmen as line infantry. And they seemed like the best I could hire in relation to their other spear types...and of course the generic Celtic Spearmen.

What is going on here? Am I just basically scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as celtic/barbarian tribes are concerned? (I thought the Swebi had terrible line infantry). Maybe I'm just using the wrong type of unit for my line? Maybe the Casse aren't as balanced as the other factions are concerned? Normally I wouldn't even complain about this and just make due and stop being a cry baby. But when your core army stacks have to be recruited and then transported to the mainland and you're just starting to carve out a foothold in Europe, you are at a severe disadvantage when having to beat back endless Roman stacks of hoplites, & Samnites and Heavy Infantry. My whole strategy as it's been in these previous campaigns and other western barbarian campaigns has been to penetrate deep into Roman soil and burn and pillage and gift everything I can't be sure to hold and continue to roll on. But without a decent line infantry....which is the core of my infantry based military system my stacks continue to melt away before making significant advances into the Roman held lands.

Does this sound normal to anyone? Does anyone have any advice for me OTHER than modding stats? Perhaps another strategy?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Friends!

[Entropy Judge]

What is going on here? Am I just basically scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as celtic/barbarian tribes are concerned? (I thought the Swebi had terrible line infantry).

What are you talking about? The Sweboz have great line infantry! Anyway ...

But without a decent line infantry....which is the core of my infantry based military system my stacks continue to melt away before making significant advances into the Roman held lands.

I will admit to not being perfectly clear which problem you're having - whether it's that your units die at a much higher frequency than others or whether it's that they break and Rout at a much higher frequency than you're expecting. I can help with both (assuming Medium Battle, of course).

First, your units dying too quickly. Biggest issue is probably your unit selection. First, get some more Teceitos; they're quite well-armoured compared to Cemmeinarn (6/3/11 instead of 2/4/12), and the AP axe helps deal with Roman units pretty well. If you can get your hands on Milnaht (very nice Belgae Swordsmen - 5/4/13 defense with an 11-Attack Longsword!) for stiffening and Cladaca (Goidilic Light Infantry ... with AP missiles) for a nasty shot at close range, they can also prove very helpful. I've also had some better luck with Vellinica over Cemmeinarn, although that's really weird because Vellinica are inferior to Cemmeinarn in several areas.

Also: Champions. Cwmyr aren't that awesome, but they're pretty sturdy nonetheless and pack a good-quality Short Sword, so you can lump them in against Principes and expect them to not collapse. Calawre are more expensive and have a smaller unit size, but have a Longsword, better Armour, and can be recruited throughout Gaul, so if you have Cash but need to raise an army, hire a bunch of Botroas/Gaelaiche and stiffen them with Calawre Champions - if nothing else, it'll be faster than trying to ship an army from Britain.


Second potential problem is units routing too quickly. This one also involves adjusting your unit selection. First thing to note: Casse Champions? All of them have Eagles. Use them. Second, Chariots and Uirodusios (and Pictone Neitos, who are awesome but not really worth it) Frighten Infantry and the first two also have Eagles, making it easier for enemy troops to break and more difficult for your units to break.

If you can break into Spain without ticking off the Lusos too much, you might be able to get your hands on Callaecae Roscaithrera, Clona Tekonac, Scortamareva, and a few other Iberian Regionals who are a bit better than your native Casse troops.



All that said, I've taken an army of Eiras, Calawre, Rycalawre, Kluddargos, and Teceitos against Roman armies before. It was interesting, until the Roman reinforcements arrived and my fairly tired guys were up against more men than I'd started with, all fresh. I'm pretty sure I lost that battle ....

[Frtigern]

I don't find the Casse underpowered against other barbarians at all. In fact, once you get into the higher tier infantry units, its almost a joke against other barbarians. The Carthaginians and Romans are another story when they start sending in their heavies, but that's where tactics and strategy comes into play. You just have to know how to use the strengths of those units. Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers) - I think the most versatile skirmishers in the game. Batacorii (Belgae Spearmen) - I believe the best light spearmen available to the Casse, which can hold the line long enough for your flanking units to get around. Drwdae (Druids) - Early in the game I feel that having a unit of these in my armies helps my units last longer when chanting, and they are heavy enough to go toe to toe with heavy infantry. Eiras (Goidilic Noble Infantry) - Not the best elites avaiable, but if I need a lot of heavy infantry ASAP I recruit a couple for each army. Iaosatae (Celtic Slingers) - Never forget to bring at least two of these to any battle. They will quickly earn experience due to the massive casualties they inflict every battle. Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) - These are my light cavalry of choice, and I like they have a spear secondary for charging. Argyn Marca (Caledonian Noble Cavalry) - The first real "heavy" cavalry available to the Casse and good flankers, melee fighters and able to beat other light cavalry. Brihentin (Gallic Noble Cavalry) - Cost effective heavy cavalry that uses a lance. Remi Mairepos (Belgae Heavy Cavalry) - Expensive but does the job you would expect it should do when used correctly. These are just the units that you can rely on around the Casse's Homeland Regions, but farther out you will be able to recruit some real nasty type warriors that make its Homeland units look weak.

[Entropy Judge]

Batacorii (Belgae Spearmen) - I believe the best light spearmen available to the Casse, which can hold the line long enough for your flanking units to get around.

Don't know that I'd call Batacorii "Light," but pretty spot-on.

Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) - These are my light cavalry of choice, and I like they have a spear secondary for charging.

Don't Cruvamendica have the 27-Charge Overhand Spear that's terrible for actually Charging? Like the Reidonez and the Eqvites?

[Team Sleep]

I will admit to not being perfectly clear which problem you're having - whether it's that your units die at a much higher frequency than others or whether it's that they break and Rout at a much higher frequency than you're expecting. I can help with both (assuming Medium Battle, of course).

They were dying at a high frequency. That was the main problem.

First, your units dying too quickly. Biggest issue is probably your unit selection. First, get some more Teceitos; they're quite well-armoured compared to Cemmeinarn (6/3/11 instead of 2/4/12), and the AP axe helps deal with Roman units pretty well. If you can get your hands on Milnaht (very nice Belgae Swordsmen - 5/4/13 defense with an 11-Attack Longsword!) for stiffening and Cladaca (Goidilic Light Infantry ... with AP missiles) for a nasty shot at close range, they can also prove very helpful. I've also had some better luck with Vellinica over Cemmeinarn, although that's really weird because Vellinica are inferior to Cemmeinarn in several areas.

Also: Champions. Cwmyr aren't that awesome, but they're pretty sturdy nonetheless and pack a good-quality Short Sword, so you can lump them in against Principes and expect them to not collapse. Calawre are more expensive and have a smaller unit size, but have a Longsword, better Armour, and can be recruited throughout Gaul, so if you have Cash but need to raise an army, hire a bunch of Botroas/Gaelaiche and stiffen them with Calawre Champions - if nothing else, it'll be faster than trying to ship an army from Britain..

This is where it's at right here. It's all about the unit compisition. I was doing it all wrong. I always thought spears were the way to go for line infantry.

I don't find the Casse underpowered against other barbarians at all. In fact, once you get into the higher tier infantry units, its almost a joke against other barbarians. The Carthaginians and Romans are another story when they start sending in their heavies, but that's where tactics and strategy comes into play. You just have to know how to use the strengths of those units. Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers) - I think the most versatile skirmishers in the game. Batacorii (Belgae Spearmen) - I believe the best light spearmen available to the Casse, which can hold the line long enough for your flanking units to get around. Drwdae (Druids) - Early in the game I feel that having a unit of these in my armies helps my units last longer when chanting, and they are heavy enough to go toe to toe with heavy infantry. Eiras (Goidilic Noble Infantry) - Not the best elites avaiable, but if I need a lot of heavy infantry ASAP I recruit a couple for each army. Iaosatae (Celtic Slingers) - Never forget to bring at least two of these to any battle. They will quickly earn experience due to the massive casualties they inflict every battle. Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) - These are my light cavalry of choice, and I like they have a spear secondary for charging. Argyn Marca (Caledonian Noble Cavalry) - The first real "heavy" cavalry available to the Casse and good flankers, melee fighters and able to beat other light cavalry. Brihentin (Gallic Noble Cavalry) - Cost effective heavy cavalry that uses a lance. Remi Mairepos (Belgae Heavy Cavalry) - Expensive but does the job you would expect it should do when used correctly. These are just the units that you can rely on around the Casse's Homeland Regions, but farther out you will be able to recruit some real nasty type warriors that make its Homeland units look weak.

Cool those are all great units and I plan to use them when My Reforms/MIC are fully upgraded.

Swordmen it is then! I'll start making new compisitions immediatley. Thanks for the help guys!

[Petite Wolf]

As you've already figured out, unit composition of definitely the issue. I ended up abandoning my Casse campaign of a while back because I was finding it too easy. All you need is at least one unit of Chariots and one unit of Uirodusios - naked spearmen - to stand behind your main line and their "Frightens Enemy Infantry" trait will make your battles so stupidly easy. I in fact ended up beginning a new campaign and jumping from Medium to Hard battle difficulty because of it.

The Casse have amazing troops, and they are extremely deadly if used correctly. Chariots are one of those units, and when you can use them early on, always do. They absolutely melt light cavalry and are great simply for frightening enemy infantry, although you do need to be careful with them when it comes to engaging enemy infantry, as if they stop moving they tend to just die extremely quickly.

I can't remember the army compositions I used, but as has previously been mentioned, Iaosatae are amazing, especially against armoured foes like the Romans. Their armour piercing trait allows them to absolutely demolish Roman troops if you're able to get them behind them.

But yes, a unit of Uirodusios and possibly a unit of Chariots - while you can recruit them - behind your main line along with even the most basic of flanking tactics and your enemies will flee before you with such ease you'll be scratching your head and thinking "When will the real armies arrive?"

[War lord]

If you want to be more historically accurate, Champions and naked spearmen go in the front of your line, ahead of the battleline.

[Team Sleep]

Now that I have a few settlements in Gaul. I have a alliance w/ the two Gaul factions. And an uneasy ceasefire with the Lusotanians. I'm sure that will break soon. Now that Celtic axemen are no longer a viable option unless I import them from the Isles, What should I be using as a main line? I have the Painted swordmen and Casse Champions and late Britton Champions. I see this as going to be an expensive army to keep up. I don't have use of the Belgae Swords or spears from where I'm at in Gaul. I am on the boarder of Hispania & Gaul, on the Gaul side. Celtic spearmen. Don't make me barf.

Any suggestions?

[Entropy Judge]

I would recommend either:

* Suck it up and use Gaelaiche. Or you could use Kluddobro ....
* Import Teceitos.
* Pop into Iberia for a few regions, to get Clona Tekonac and Iberi Caetrati/Milites.

Because really, those are your options. Use units you don't like, import, or expand. Option 2 -> 3 is probably your best shot; import an army or two of solid units to both hold your current territories and invade some Iberian regions, then take Asturia and maybe the one next to it.

Yeah, you'll probably incur the wrath and/or money pockets of the Lusos, but Iberi units are good enough that it might be worth it anyway.

[War lord]

You can get Celtic units from the province south of the Belgae that borders the Rhine, or you could take the province in western Gaul just below Brittany for Pictone Neitos, or you could push south and grab Massalia for Massilian Hoplites, Celto-Hellenes and Thureophoroi. You can also train your basic Southern Gallic Swordsmen in the Po basin, but that might be a little too close to Rome.

[athanaric]

Casse can recruit a decent variety of Lusitanian units plus a few other Iberians (especially in the north, where there's axemen and cavalry in addition to the skirmishers, spearmen, and caetrati that are recruitable elsewhere), so you can hold your own in Iberia even if your supply lines get cut off. Beware of Carthage though, as long as they hold even a single province on the peninsula, they're gonna send over one army after another.

[Brihentin13]

Dem chariots yo. Even with the admittedly crappy Gaeliche, chariots fix everything.

[athanaric]

As for early campaign, Uirodusios work wonders in combination with your standard swordsmen and spearmen.

Dem chariots yo. Even with the admittedly crappy Gaeliche, chariots fix everything.

Gaelaiche aren't bad. Their only weak spot is lack of armour, which admittedly is not exactly practical for a main battle line unit, but they're still a big improvement over Lugoae.

[Brihentin13]

Gaelaiche aren't bad. Their only weak spot is lack of armour, which admittedly is not exactly practical for a main battle line unit, but they're still a big improvement over Lugoae.[/QUOTE]

The armor issue can be resolved through insane aggression. Don't give the missile units a chance to hurt them and trample your enemies before they can flank. "Barbarian" units are great in defensive "line" combat anyway. Their stats make ambushes or decisive charges more prudent, at least until you get some high level units like Neitos.

[Brihentin13]

Correction. I meant to say that "Barbarian" units are NOT good in defensive line combat.

[athanaric]

Correction. I meant to say that "Barbarian" units are NOT good in defensive line combat.

Depends on the unit and faction. Getai have good defensive units, and Lusotannan and Swêboz too, to a certain degree. It's not the key competence of these factions, though.

[Petite Wolf]

Their stats make ambushes or decisive charges more prudent, at least until you get some high level units like Neitos.

That's one reason I love those factions so much. Ambushing is so much fun. I've also been wondering if units like Urodusios that have "Frightens enemy infantry" stack with "surprised by enemy emerging" to create a double fear effect. If they do, I now have an even better use for naked spearmen than standing behind my main line ^_^.

[Brihentin13]

I know I'd be terrified by a bunch of naked dudes jumping out of the trees at me. Had the banjo been invented at this point?

[Petite Wolf]

They sure do, Brihentin. I love my Chariots. The only problem is how quickly they die if you don't micro them correctly, but then again that's part of the fun.

[Brihentin13]

I didn't understand the point of them(the chariots) until someone on here explained them to me. That might have been you actually, Petite Wolf.(I don;t remember. It was a while back and I don't feel like finding the thread right now). Also, the simple realization that "alt-attack" is a thing has helped tremendously. Without that, you have to either tell them to run to a position behind who you want them to run through or watch them derp with their javelins.