THE BANE OF RTS BATTLES COMING TO ROME 2?

[total relism]

I love that ca chose roman time period, i love certain things they have added to Rome 2. Such as line of sight, less more important battles,slowing down battles and lower RPS effect etc.


But to me what may destroy battles and turn them into a click fest is all the special abilities of not just generals,but units as well. It has been confirmed that certain units will have multiple ablitites, as well as generals with new to TW series ablitites. What made TW unique and great in my opinion [not counting Norb soft dev http://www.norbsoftdev.net/] that separated them from random rts games battles was. It actually matter if you flanked guys,morale,how tired units are and what overall strategy you would use. Now it seems CA is going in the direction of what magic ability you use at what time and how quick you can push a button on all your units to bring out these magic ablitites. It seems strategy is tacking a back seat to poor gameplay. Instead of enjoying a battles as a movie, and considering my next strategic move, i will be trying to click as many ablitites as i can instead. I see no fun in this kind of gamplay, as i have played it before.



I am all for generals having effect on battles, by why with magic button abilities? why not have from beginning of game,certain generals effect morale of units, even units about to run, that they have slight % chance because general to rally? without the use of a magic button?. Or why not if a general is near it can increase moral of units?. Why harm gameplay with mass button pushing?.


For me when all the unit abilities were added, it really took from gameplay, i had to stop playing as Germans because i would have to make sure all my units hit "warcry" before charging in. I think the Germanic warcry and charge bonus should just be in the unit anyways and when they charge,they yell.

Another negative effect a poster brought up, is that button abilities make it very hard to immerse yourself in the feel of the game. It's hard to think your a general of a army in roman time, when you are clicking magic button buffs. To me the feel of the game and to feel like your actually there is very important, this makes it impossible with magic buffs in battle for me personally, it will be like a reminder in game over and over.


another negative a poster pointed out is that it adds is micro management to the battle map were there is already alot. While ca reduces the amount on campighn map with no time constrats.

[Cadian Guardsman]

I don't think they will have that much of an impact and from gameplay footage it's only 1 active ability and then skirmish mode/dismount and unit formation, seems pretty similar to Shogun 2 where the Samurai had Banzai and Yari Samurai had rapid advance. Also I'm sure that total war games can't be a click fest, most RTS's which are APM intensive died along time ago, really the only modern mainstream one is Starcraft 2. Unless that is your definition of a clickfest is more than 20 actions per minute.

[total relism]

I don't think they will have that much of an impact and from gameplay footage it's only 1 active ability and then skirmish mode/dismount and unit formation, seems pretty similar to Shogun 2 where the Samurai had Banzai and Yari Samurai had rapid advance. Also I'm sure that total war games can't be a click fest, most RTS's which are APM intensive died along time ago, really the only modern mainstream one is Starcraft 2. Unless that is your definition of a clickfest is more than 20 actions per minute.

I guess we all have our preferences, to me any magic button other than formation change,fire arrows general rally etc is to much. Shogun 2 to me i did not play as and from all i have herd thank god. It sounded a terrible step in battles from empire. I wish i had the hope you do that somehow they wont effect gameplay, i cant see how they wont, only by them not being their would i have hope.

[Greve Af Göteborg]

Yeah, I dislike the multitude of abilities that you have to keep in check. I would be okay with abilities on the general and perhaps stuff like warcry and then toggle-able fire-arrows and different stances (shieldwall, phalanx formation etc...)
But keep the abilities to a minimum please, having to micro-manage all of the cooldowns in a 40 unit battle is just stressful and not fun at all.

[caissus]

I dislike ability buttons for regular troops too. Completely unnecessary. The only ones that are acceptable are fire arrows, formations like testudo and some abilities for the general. A "charge better/fight harder" button is just pointless.

[Maklodes]

This sort of thing always confuses me. Battles in the TW series have been RTS since the very first one, Shogun: Total War. Total War has always had turn-based strategic game and real time tactical game.

[total relism]

This sort of thing always confuses me. Battles in the TW series have been RTS since the very first one, Shogun: Total War. Total War has always had turn-based strategic game and real time tactical game.

I was referring to the stereotypical rts battles were you build on the map.

[Cadian Guardsman]

This sort of thing always confuses me. Battles in the TW series have been RTS since the very first one, Shogun: Total War. Total War has always had turn-based strategic game and real time tactical game.

It is technically a Real Time Tactics RTT but most people still like the ring of RTS better.

[Sharpe]

Chances are you will only be able to use them a few times a battle. And I really doubt these abilities being hugely decisive.

[Sandraker]

Chances are you will only be able to use them a few times a battle. And I really doubt these abilities being hugely decisive.

Some abilities are truly ridiculous, such as the General's new Second Wind, which according to the Macedon skirmish footage completely resets a selected unit's fatigue. From exhausted to fresh. I'd call that pretty damn decisive, and it's bound to cause moments where people go "what the hell man that shouldn't be possible". Abilities of such power, that could potentially swing a battle in favour of the guy who used absolutely dumb tactics shouldn't be in.
It should also be noted that they practically took center stage in most of Al Bickham's gameplay commentary. Well, perhaps that's why he keeps on losing. He focuses on abilities instead of actual tactics.

I'm fine with the abilities that give units a bonus at the cost of later consequences such as increased fatigue, but an overdose of abilities is detrimental. I also think that cooldowns aren't the optimal implementation for abilities, I think toggleable (or "stance"-type) abilities are a better way to go.

I think I'll try my hand at some experimental modding at some point, and see in what other ways an ability system can be pulled off. The idea would be to make something that adds a bit of depth while keeping things believable and non-tedious.

[The True Roman]

Some abilities are truly ridiculous, such as the General's new Second Wind, which according to Macedon skirmish footage completely resets a selected unit's fatigue. From exhausted to fresh. I'd call that pretty damn decisive, and it's bound to cause moments where people go "what the hell man that shouldn't be possible". Abilities of such power, that could potentially swing a battle in favour of the guy who used absolutely dumb tactics shouldn't be in.
It should also be noted that they practically took center stage in most of Al Bickham's gameplay commentary. Well, perhaps that's why he keeps on losing. He focuses on abilities instead of actual tactics.

I'm fine with the abilities that give units a bonus at the cost of later consequences such as increased fatigue, but an overdose of abilities is detrimental.

Getting a second wind is hardly unrealistic, being tired in the mist of battle then suddenly hearing your General behind you is usually more then enough to get you to find the extra endurance to dig through your fatigue and fight harder. Its only temporary boost of energy, its like the difference between running by yourself or having someone one next to you motivating you to go faster.

[Dan113112]

that can, not always work with certain generals and units, but why a magic button? why not if general is near it can increase moral of units?. Why harm gameplay with mass button pushing?.

Because it is not simulating the general but an officer within the unit ushering his men onward.

[M2TWRocks]

Getting a second wind is hardly unrealistic, being tired in the mist of battle then suddenly hearing your General behind you is usually more then enough to get you to find the extra endurance to dig through your fatigue and fight harder. Its only temporary boost of energy, its like the difference between running by yourself or having someone one next to you motivating you to go faster.

I'm assuming you're a combat Veteran who has actually experienced this in battle, right? Or, are you just basing this on speculation and hollywood movies? Because what you're describing sounds more like morale than actual fatigue. You don't mysteriously get re-energized because some guy high fives you, or looks like Mel Gibson. Combat fatigue is a very real issue which is why there is so much emphasis on physical training for modern troops. I don't care who you are, or what you say in battle, if you've just low crawled 500 hundred yards, or in Roman times, just ran 300 yards in heavy armor with a heavy shield and spear, you're going to be burned out if you don't stop running prior to combat. This is why clicking the button is such a silly mechanic.

Sure, it's possible and likely that an inspirational General can motivate you to go the extra mile, or continue to fight when you're exhausted. But that's a morale thing, not just resetting your fatigue meter. You're still exhausted and will likely fight less effectively.

[Sii]

I'm assuming you're a combat Veteran who has actually experienced this in battle, right? Or, are you just basing this on speculation and hollywood movies? Because what you're describing sounds more like morale than actual fatigue. You don't mysteriously get re-energized because some guy high fives you, or looks like Mel Gibson. Combat fatigue is a very real issue which is why there is so much emphasis on physical training for modern troops. I don't care who you are, or what you say in battle, if you've just low crawled 500 hundred yards, or in Roman times, just ran 300 yards in heavy armor with a heavy shield and spear, you're going to be burned out if you don't stop running prior to combat. This is why clicking the button is such a silly mechanic.

Sure, it's possible and likely that an inspirational General can motivate you to go the extra mile, or continue to fight when you're exhausted. But that's a morale thing, not just resetting your fatigue meter. You're still exhausted and will likely fight less effectively.

You don't need to be a combat veteran to know that you can get a second wind. It's as simple as using a motivator to do what you previously thought you couldn't. Anecdotal evidence, a few months ago I was helping my dad at his home trying to push a Queen size mattress up a flight of stairs on my own while he was away. I got about half-way up the stairs before I realized I couldn't go any further, my muscles ached and my arms were shaking and it was taking the rest of my strength just to keep the thing from falling back down the stairs. I immediately thought what my dad would do if here I was stuck half-way up the stairs with a mattress and him laughing at me. I used that as motivation and got a second-wind and somehow found the strength to make it up the rest of the stairs and on to the box-spring. Same thing if you're lifting at a gym and think you can't do another rep and your spotter motivates you to do more.

It should be a very short amount of time that you can utilize a second-wind ability, maybe 10 seconds, afterwards that unit should go beyond exhaustion maybe label it critical exhaustion.

[DavidtheDuke]

Yep! TOTAL CLICKFEST! Better not buy it, CA said to me in a darkened room smoking cigars, "This'll show those smarty-pants, we'll add unit abilities. Then they'll post complaints on the forum and STILL buy the game, mwahaha! Where's my underaged Thai servant?!"

[craziii]

Yep! TOTAL CLICKFEST! Better not buy it, CA said to me in a darkened room smoking cigars, "This'll show those smarty-pants, we'll add unit abilities. Then they'll post complaints on the forum and STILL buy the game, mwahaha! Where's my underaged Thai servant?!"

the duke have spoken! off with your heads if you so much as show a hint of disagreement! jokes aside, I agree with the duke

[The True Roman]

They had this in Shogun 2 and it really didn't effect the game much. I never used them and still seemed to win every battle. You only have to use them on the harder difficulty settings, its hardly "magic" its a way for CA to represent how Generals and other units influence the battle.

[total relism]

Yep! TOTAL CLICKFEST! Better not buy it, CA said to me in a darkened room smoking cigars, "This'll show those smarty-pants, we'll add unit abilities. Then they'll post complaints on the forum and STILL buy the game, mwahaha! Where's my underaged Thai servant?!"

I have as well already got the game, before the news of this and still would have. As I always say without mods i would not buy any tw game but medevil 1 and empire. But your post appears you are to emotionally invested in tw games to be able to handle someone not likeing a feature.

They had this in Shogun 2 and it really didn't effect the game much. I never used them and still seemed to win every battle. You only have to use them on the harder difficulty settings, its hardly "magic" its a way for CA to represent how Generals and other units influence the battle.

maybe you were able to usually win without them because you play against the AI?. I never do this after the first month of play.

Getting a second wind is hardly unrealistic, being tired in the mist of battle then suddenly hearing your General behind you is usually more then enough to get you to find the extra endurance to dig through your fatigue and fight harder. Its only temporary boost of energy, its like the difference between running by yourself or having someone one next to you motivating you to go faster.

that can, not always work with certain generals and units, but why a magic button? why not if general is near it can increase moral of units?. Why harm gameplay with mass button pushing?.

[DavidtheDuke]

I have as well already got the game, before the news of this and still would have. As I always say without mods i would not buy any tw game but medevil 1 and empire. But your post appears you are to emotionally invested in tw games to be able to handle someone not likeing a feature.

Of I like them. I just like poking fun at these incessant nitpickings that aren't going to change.

[Sharpe]

It should also be noted that they practically took center stage in most of Al Bickham's gameplay commentary. Well, perhaps that's why he keeps on losing. He focuses on abilities instead of actual tactics

I think that was the point of the video, a display rather than a conscious effort.