how to beat phalangites head on?

[Dunadd]

You do realize the Roman Iberian War was not instant mop up? Two Roman armies were annihalted in Spain killing Scipio's father. Hasrabal's troops were pretty experienced I would say by the time Africanus got there.

May have had some experience, but not nearly the amount of experience Hannibal's veterans had - and less training and less well motivated as a lot of them were punic citizen militia and Iberian forced levies, with the professional warriors and soldiers mostly having been taken by Hannibal.

Um no there WERE Velites at Cannae.

You're misunderstanding what i wrote. My point is that we know there were velites raised as a matter of course in every legion from the time they replaced levies (middle of the Second Punic War at the latest) up until the Marian reforms in the 1st century BC. So, unless we have specific reports from ancient on writers saying they weren't at a battle like Magnesia, they would be present whether they were mentioned or not.

By the time of Marian reforms Velites would have been very little due to manpower shortages in the heavy infantry.

But Magnesia was in 190BC. The Marian reforms weren't until 107BC - 83 years later. There was no heavy infantry manpower shortage in 190BC - they happened due to the heavy casualties and lack of loot in the campaigns against Jugurtha, which didn't start till 112BC, 78 years after Magnesia - and also by the concentration of land ownership in Italy in fewer and fewer hands making many middle class Roman farmers into poor plebeians who didn't meet the property requirements for military service.

[HuangCaesar]

May have had some experience, but not nearly the amount of experience Hannibal's veterans had - and less training and less well motivated as a lot of them were punic citizen militia and Iberian forced levies, with the professional warriors and soldiers mostly having been taken by Hannibal.

Neither for the Romans, the Roman just had the manpower and the diplomacy and the genius of Scipio.

You're misunderstanding what i wrote. My point is that we know there were velites raised as a matter of course in every legion from the time they replaced levies (middle of the Second Punic War at the latest) up until the Marian reforms in the 1st century BC. So, unless we have specific reports from ancient on writers saying they weren't at a battle like Magnesia, they would be present whether they were mentioned or not.

Your original point was that the missle fire inflicted on the Phalanx was not Pila but Velite fire. Aparetley it would have been both if the quote heavily implies it.

Also the Velite javelin hastae velitares, is heavily based off the Pila.

"The Roman army was practically uniform as regards both the men and their equipment; there were two Roman legions and two of Latins and allies, each containing 5000 men. The Romans occupied the centre, the Latins the wings. The standards of the hastati were in front, then came those of the principes, and last of all the triarii.(no Velites mentioned) Beyond these, whom we may call the regulars, the consul drew up on his right, level with them, the auxiliary troops of Eumenes who were incorporated with the Achaean caetrati, amounting to about 3000 men;"

If the quote was that specific and no Velites were mentioned.....there might have been no Velites. A typical Roman army would have 1,200 Velites per Legion.....no mention of them being out in front or the flanks.

Here is Appian's quote:

"The Roman legionaries, to the number of 10,000, formed the left wing resting on the river. Behind these were 10,000 Italian allies, and both these divisions were in files in triple line of battle."(Again no Velites in front.)

Back to Livy:

"The chariots thus armed were stationed, as I have already said, in front of the line for had they been in the rear or the centre they must have been driven through their own men. When he saw this, Eumenes, who was quite familiar with their mode of fighting, and knew how much their assistance would be worth when once the horses were terrified, ordered the Cretan archers, the slingers and javelin men(the 3,000 men under his command), in conjunction with some troops of cavalry, to run forward, not in close order but as loosely as possible, and discharge their missiles simultaneously from every side."

"Whilst they were in this disorder the Romans advanced against them and discharged their javelins. Even the elephants posted between the divisions of the phalanx did not deter them, accustomed as they were in the African wars to evade the charge of the beast and attack its sides with their javelins or, if they could get nearer to it, hamstring it with their swords. The centre front was now almost entirely beaten down and the reserves, having been outflanked, were being cut down from the rear

The quote heavily implies it was the Legionaires that finished off the Phalanx.

[Dunadd]

Here is Appian's quote:
"The Roman legionaries, to the number of 10,000, formed the left wing resting on the river. Behind these were 10,000 Italian allies, and both these divisions were in files in triple line of battle."(Again no Velites in front.)

That is your assumption based on nothing here. Every legion up until the marian reforms - which were 83 years away at the time of Magnesia, included velites.
Appian and Livy may have taken the presence of velites for granted so much that they didn't mention them as they weren't decisive - or the three lines could even be velites, hastati and principes - with the triarii not fighting at all. There were lots of battles in which the triarii never fought, because winning without them gave consuls more prestige.

Velites were recruited to every single legion in this period, as were equites. Unless the writers specifically say there were no velites, their presence would have gone without saying unless they did anything very noteworthy in the battle, as their usual use was too defeat enemy light troops before the heavy infantry and equites engaged the main body of the enemy.

Legionaries didn't use javelins they used pila. Now that may be loose use of language or mistranslation over the centuries, but nothing in anything you quote suggests there were no velites present - velites were legionaries in this period as much as any of the other troop types in the legion.

And at Zama in "the African wars" referred to in the quotes it was the velites that killed the elephants with javelins.

[HuangCaesar]

Legionaries didn't use javelins they used pila.

The Pila IS a javelin. The Velite javlin IS BASED OFF the Pila. Anyway, main point was the Legionaires inflicted damage on the Phalanx with their pila. There is nothing the text that disproves it but there is a lot that strongly supports it.

[JaM]

guys, Velites were always placed in front of Legion to skirmish the enemy before contact. Once combat started, they moved through ranks into rear, or flanks where they either supported infantry, or moved to support cavalry. They are not mentioned, because they were not fighting the enemy at the front during battle. At Zama, Velites were in front of legions so they engaged elephants. Once they expended their javelins they were withdrawn through to the rear.

[JaM]

Some interesting info about PIke fighting i found recently:

Pike was held in two hands, due to its weight it would not achieve similar thrust speeds like lighter spears(8.5m/s-9m/s for underarm or 6.5-7m/s for overarm), usually it would be at around 4-4.5m/s. With usual weight of 5kg, this gives average kinetic energy of a thrust at 50 joules. (practically very similar to what Roman Gladius would do up close in terms of KE) Where things get actually interesting is if we take into assumption momentum of the formation. With average Phalangitai weight of 75kg, plus another let say 25kg of armor,shield and sarissa, while walking forward at speed of 1.3m/s it gives us kinetic energy of 85 joules of energy delivered upon impact. 85 joules is good enough to penetrate the Hamata Chainmail, or any shield used by ancient infantry, which means, if phalanx managed to keep moving forward with pikes fixed underarm (crouching) they could roll over their initial opposition. yet after momentum got stopped by initial contact, actual thrusting with pikes didn't usually had enough of force to pierce armor or shields,but could be lethal to anybody who is not wearing chainmail or Bronze Cuirass,let alone any hits into not protected areas. Yet, Phalangitai tactics in case of Phalanx stopped (mentioned at Pydna) was to actively press pikes against shields of advancing soldiers so they were unable to move forward, while other pikes tried to strike them into neck,head or similar. This quite well explain quite low number of casualties Romans had at Pydna, as they were literally not able to get at Pikemen frontally, while all casualties were most likely caused by the initial clash.


This btw means whole CA concept of portraying Pike wall is wrong, as it should definitely not reduce the charge,but on contrary, it should have it higher, as Pike Phalanx (as well as Hoplite Phalanx or any spear using unit) was most dangerous at initial contact while using momentum of movement forward..