how to beat phalangites head on?

[HuangCaesar]

If the Sarrissa Phalanx was really that superior, the Romans would have adopted it. Alexander Severus tried, but it was glory thing than actual tactical effectiveness.

[JaM]

Yes, but Plutarch lived hundreds of years after Punic wars, while Livy and Polybius lived in times much closer to it, so i would take their texts as more accurate than texts of Plutarch. (and ofcourse Polybius over Livy every day... Only things i would consider as questionable from Polybius were texts about Amelianii/Cornelia/Scipio family, as he was employed as their personal historian.)

[HuangCaesar]

Again Greek text is often misinterpeted, the called Roman Legions a phalanx, the Pilum a contus, Byzantine infantry hoplites.

[Dunadd]

Any text can be misinterpeted, but i think it's pretty generally agreed that Polybius knew more about military matters and had more reliable sources than Livy, who was writing hundreds of years later than many of the events he described.

[JaM]

That is why i prefer Polybius over others.. He was soldier, so he knew about tactics and weapons from own experience, and he lived closer to the Punic Wars, to actually have more accurate info than others who came 100+ years after him.

[Dunadd]

From the passage on Livy you quote Huang Caesar - a part you didn't bold

Here the ranks were broken and they were prevented from using their extraordinarily long spears-the Macedonians call them "sarisae" - by their own comrades who ran back for shelter amongst them. Whilst they were in this disorder the Romans advanced against them and discharged their javelins Even the elephants posted between the divisions of the phalanx did not deter them

This sounds very much like the phalangites couldn't advance to attack the legionaries because other routed seleucid troops had run in amongst them and left their formation in chaos and unable to move. That doesn't prove that phalangites couldn't attack legionaries because of pila in any way.

[HuangCaesar]

From the passage on Livy you quote Huang Caesar - a part you didn't bold


This sounds very much like the phalangites couldn't advance to attack the legionaries because other routed seleucid troops had run in amongst them and left their formation in chaos and unable to move. That doesn't prove that phalangites couldn't attack legionaries because of pila in any way.

Remember the Phalanx hadn't formed square yet in Livy's quote. the Legion was attacking them from all sides routing the elephants due to the intermixing you mentioned. THEN the elephants retreated. THEN the Phalanx formed squares presenting a formidable mass. THEN the Legions withdrew and engaged with Pila again, THEN the Phalanx retreats.

"The Romans did not come to close quarters nor approach them because they feared the discipline, the solidity, and the desperation of this veteran corps; but circled around them and assailed them with javelins and arrows, none of which missed their mark in the dense mass, who could neither turn the missiles aside nor dodge them.
After suffering severely in this way they yielded to necessity and fell back step by step, but with a bold front, in perfect order and still formidable to the Romans"
Appian.

That means Appian's quote takes place after Livy's as the Phalanx had not retreated yet in Livy's quote, and the formation of squares takes place after, then the Legion saw the squares and realized theywere too formidable and resorted to Pila fire and the Phalanx retreats right after the missle fire. If the Phanlanx was that incapable of using Sarrissa the Romans would have engaged them in melee, but no they were only disrupted for only a while, formed squares and Romans withdrew and used missles, then Phalanx retreats.

[RGA]

Just a question: why does everyone assume that the javelins mentions in text were pila? They could be launched by light infantry or cavalry for example.

[HuangCaesar]

Just a question: why does everyone assume that the javelins mentions in text were pila? They could be launched by light infantry or cavalry for example.

" the Romans advanced against them and discharged their javelins. Even the elephants posted between the divisions of the phalanx did not deter them, accustomed as they were in the African wars to evade the charge of the beast and attack its sides with their javelins or, if they could get nearer to it, hamstring it with their swords. The centre front was now almost entirely beaten down and the reserves, having been outflanked, were being cut down from the rear." Livy.

The fact the Romans advanced in an aggressive manner, using swords and reserves highly implies they were Legionaries.

[Dunadd]

The fact the Romans advanced in an aggressive manner, using swords and reserves highly implies they were Legionaries.

You could be right but i don't think it's clear whether that's the case from that passage on Livy. Hesitating to engage phalangites in melee but being effective againt elephants could as easily mean velites or a mixture of velites and hastati/principes. If they were veterans of Scipio's Spanish campaigns they might be modelled on Iberian Caetrati light infantry who didn't hesitate to melee other light infantry - and Scipio in his first battle in Iberia used hastati mixed with velites to assault Hasdrubal's light infantry who were deployed on a hill-side. Velites did all have a sword, shield and helmet as well as their javelins
.

[HuangCaesar]

You could be right but i don't think it's clear whether that's the case from that passage on Livy. Hesitating to engage phalangites in melee but being effective againt elephants could as easily mean velites or a mixture of velites and hastati/principes. If they were veterans of Scipio's Spanish campaigns they might be modelled on Iberian Caetrati light infantry who didn't hesitate to melee other light infantry - and Scipio in his first battle in Iberia used hastati mixed with velites to assault Hasdrubal's light infantry who were deployed on a hill-side. Velites did all have a sword, shield and helmet as well as their javelins
.

Why would they be molded from Iberians? Foederettii(Roman allied troops) would usually be disbanded after campaign or joined the Legion with Legion weapons. Last time I checked there were no Iberians allied troops at Magnesia, only Romans, Italians and Greeks. Rome had some Cretan archers led by Eugemes. As for Italians, the a majority of Italian infantry by the end of the 2nd Punic War looked just like normal Legionaire.

"The Roman army was practically uniform as regards both the men and their equipment; there were two Roman legions and two of Latins and allies, each containing 5000 men. The Romans occupied the centre, the Latins the wings. The standards of the hastati were in front, then came those of the principes, and last of all the triarii. Beyond these, whom we may call the regulars, the consul drew up on his right, level with them, the auxiliary troops of Eumenes who were incorporated with the Achaean caetrati, amounting to about 3000 men; beyond them again were stationed nearly 3000 cavalry, 800 of which were furnished by Eumenes, the rest being Romans. Outside these were posted the Trallian and Cretan horse, each body numbering 500 troopers. The left wing was not considered to need so much support as it rested on the river and was protected by the precipitous banks; four squadrons of cavalry, however, were lined up at that end. This was the total strength which the Romans brought into the field. In addition to these, however, there was a mixed force of Macedonians and Thracians, 2000 in all, who had followed as volunteers; they were left to guard the camp. The sixteen elephants were placed in reserve behind the triarii; they could not possibly stand against the king's elephants, of which there were fifty-four, and the African elephants are no match for the Indian elephants even when the numbers are equal, for the latter are much larger and fight with more determination. "

No Iberians...or Velites. Just Cretan archers and Roman Legionaires.

Velites by this time were starting to fade, by the time of Marius due to the Veteranship of the Legions and lack of manpower, missle troops were supplemented by the Cretans and Baleric Foderetii.

Both the Velites and Iberian infantry carried arodynamic javelins similar to the Pila.

[JaM]

Just a question: why does everyone assume that the javelins mentions in text were pila? They could be launched by light infantry or cavalry for example.

Cavalry used short light javelins, and skirmishers used light javelins.. neither of these had anywhere as much of stopping power of Pilum. Pilum was quite a different.. usually javelins had around 400-600g, yet pilum was usually 900-1500g heavy (later during Imperial times pilum was weighted by lead to be even heavier) Together with very small cross-section of its precursor it gave it excellent armor penetration. even if it didnt hit the target, having hundreds of 1.5-2m long javelins sticked from the ground or laying (with several dead bodies,etc..) there would present quite an obstacle to any close rank formation to pass through.

[JaM]

As Magnesia was fought in 190b.c just 12 years after Battle of Zama, Principes and Triarii at Magnesia were mostly formed from veterans of Zama (Scipio Africanus was at Magnesia with his brother.) Hardly any Velites would serve as Velite for 12 years...

[Dunadd]

As Magnesia was fought in 190b.c just 12 years after Battle of Zama, Principes and Triarii at Magnesia were mostly formed from veterans of Zama (Scipio Africanus was at Magnesia with his brother.) Hardly any Velites would serve as Velite for 12 years...

And a lot of battles seem to have been decided by who had more veteran troops. Hannibal's entire army that he invaded Italy with were veterans of the Spanish war (well except the Gauls and Campani and Bruttians who joined him - though they may well have had experience fighting against (and in some cases for) the Romans). At Cannae the Romans had a huge advantage in numbers but almost entirely green recruits as the veterans had mostly been killed at the Ticinus, the Trebbia and Lake Trasimene.

Hasdrubal was left with mostly green troops and militia in Spain and was defeated by the Romans (after i think one victory over them along with his Spanish allies?) as a result.

At Zama Scipio had veterans of his Spanish campaigns (i think?) while Hannibal had mostly green recruits and city militia, including barely trained elephants, with only his third line being made up of the veterans he could fit on the ships he left Italy with

[HuangCaesar]

Hasdrubal was left with mostly green troops and militia in Spain and was defeated by the Romans (after i think one victory over them along with his Spanish allies?) as a result.

You do realize the Roman Iberian War was not instant mop up? Two Roman armies were annihalted in Spain killing Scipio's father. Hasrabal's troops were pretty experienced I would say by the time Africanus got there.

At Zama Scipio had veterans of his Spanish campaigns (i think?) with

And Sicily.

[JaM]

You could be right but i don't think it's clear whether that's the case from that passage on Livy. Hesitating to engage phalangites in melee but being effective againt elephants could as easily mean velites or a mixture of velites and hastati/principes. If they were veterans of Scipio's Spanish campaigns they might be modelled on Iberian Caetrati light infantry who didn't hesitate to melee other light infantry - and Scipio in his first battle in Iberia used hastati mixed with velites to assault Hasdrubal's light infantry who were deployed on a hill-side. Velites did all have a sword, shield and helmet as well as their javelins

Velites were formed of young men, they were not formed from veterans. all veterans would serve in Principes or Triarii, especially after Cannae, when state was providing weapons and armor. i doubt any veteran would sign again to be put into Velites units.. these men were supposed to be mobile, yet veterans would hardly be willing to run around with "kids"...

No Iberians...or Velites. Just Cretan archers and Roman Legionaires.

Velites by this time were starting to fade, by the time of Marius due to the Veteranship of the Legions and lack of manpower, missle troops were supplemented by the Cretans and Baleric Foderetii.

Both the Velites and Iberian infantry carried arodynamic javelins similar to the Pila.

There were still Velites at Magnesia, they were used up till third Punic War. Origin of Velites starts with Camilian Legion. At that time Velites were young men who wanted to prove themselves, therefore they used wolf skin on their helmet to represent "sons of wolf" and they searched for single combat in front of battle line during skirmish phase of battle. Only later they were reformed into skirmishers themselves, and they kept the wolf skin which was initially supposed to scare enemies, as they thought they are all wanting to fight in single combat... anyway they become quite effective medium infantry, comparable to Greek Peltats, they kept their swords and Parma shields, and were quite effective with javelins and in close combat.

[HuangCaesar]

There were Velites at Magnesia??? Sources? Livy clearly states only Hastati, Principes, and Triarii. Roman missle troops were Cretan horse archers and Greek peltasts.

[Dunadd]

It'd be very strange if there weren't any velites as they were in every Roman legion from some time during the Second Punic War (at the latest) until the Marian reforms, weren't they? Given that they don't need to be specifically mentioned to be there. We know e.g they were in the legions raised before Cannae but are there any specific mentions of them in accounts of Cannae? If there aren't it wouldn't show they weren't there. Ditto for Magnesia.

Surely there would be specific statements that there weren't velites or equites present at Magnesia -and explaining why not - if they weren't.

JAM wrote

Velites were formed of young men, they were not formed from veterans. all veterans would serve in Principes or Triarii, especially after Cannae, when state was providing weapons and armor. i doubt any veteran would sign again to be put into Velites units.. these men were supposed to be mobile, yet veterans would hardly be willing to run around with "kids"...

yeah, fair enough, the velites would likely be new recruits, but the legions they were in would mostly be veterans of Spain - and Scipio used velites with some hastati mixed in in Spain to attack Carthaginian and Iberian skirmishers in melee is my point - and velites at Zama against elephants - so it's quite possible the Romans at Magnesia would have done the same against the Seleucids, using some hastati mixed in with the velites. The velites might be new recruits but the legion's officers, many of whom had served under Scipio in Spain and at Zama, might have used similar organisation at Magnesia

[HuangCaesar]

It'd be very strange if there weren't any velites as they were in every Roman legion from some time during the Second Punic War (at the latest) until the Marian reforms, weren't they? Given that they don't need to be specifically mentioned to be there. We know e.g they were in the legions raised before Cannae but are there any specific mentions of them in accounts of Cannae? If there aren't it wouldn't show they weren't there. Ditto for Magnesia.

Any or not, it would not be in any huge number. Again when the chariots attacked them, the Romans used their Cretans and Talieans, not the Velites. Rome just got done fighting a lot of wars, many of their Velites were already promoted.

Um no there WERE Velites at Cannae.

" The shout being raised, the auxiliaries charged, and the battle commenced in the first place with the light-armed troops" Livy

Last time I checked Rome had no Iberians or Greeks, so yes they were totally Velites or Italian Roarii who would be armed similary.

By the time of Marian reforms Velites would have been very little due to manpower shortages in the heavy infantry.

yeah, fair enough, the velites would likely be new recruits, but the legions they were in would mostly be veterans of Spain - and Scipio used velites with some hastati mixed in in Spain to attack Carthaginian and Iberian skirmishers in melee is my point - and velites at Zama against elephants - so it's quite possible the Romans at Magnesia would have done the same against the Seleucids, using some hastati mixed in with the velites. The velites might be new recruits but the legion's officers, many of whom had served under Scipio in Spain and at Zama, might have used similar organisation at Magnesia

Does it matter? The Cretans were clearly the more effective force in the battle.

[JaM]

At Cannae for example, Triarii were left guarding the camp, therefore they were not amongst the casualties. Anyway maybe if Paulus had Triarii forming third rank, who could turn to the rear and fight off Carthagian cavalry and african infantry, spanish and celtic forces in the middle would not hold the line against Roman Principes and Hastati.. anyway this just shows how great Hannibal was as a General, as he had to anticipate this move..