how to beat phalangites head on?

[need help]

I enjoy reading up on ancient history but am but no means a historian, so I am wondering if it is possible to ever beat phlangites in a frontal assault (no flanking) if manipular units like Roman Legionaries are used. Since phalangites carry 30 ft. long sarissas, how is it even possible to break their formation if no archers/javelins are used. I can just imagine the wall of sarissas and don't see how it is possible to advance through them with just the use of a short sword.

[hochmeister devin]

I enjoy reading up on ancient history but am but no means a historian, so I am wondering if it is possible to ever beat phlangites in a frontal assault (no flanking) if manipular units like Roman Legionaries are used. Since phalangites carry 30 ft. long sarissas, how is it even possible to break their formation if no archers/javelins are used. I can just imagine the wall of sarissas and don't see how it is possible to advance through them with just the use of a short sword.

Actualy they were more like 18-21 ft (6-7m) but, that is still a very long pike.

[DavidtheDuke]

I enjoy reading up on ancient history but am but no means a historian, so I am wondering if it is possible to ever beat phlangites in a frontal assault (no flanking) if manipular units like Roman Legionaries are used. Since phalangites carry 30 ft. long sarissas, how is it even possible to break their formation if no archers/javelins are used. I can just imagine the wall of sarissas and don't see how it is possible to advance through them with just the use of a short sword.

Well with no ability to flank, they were unmatched really. However in reality Rome's ability to use more flexible formations won them the day, and they weren't forced into Thermopylae like situations (or a better example: a situation like the battle of Marathon).

[DarthRuanek]

Why do you need to beat the head-on? Just attack them from the sides or rear.

[need help]

Why do you need to beat the head-on? Just attack them from the sides or rear.

Was just wondering if it was possible :p. have done it in rtw so was wondering if there was any special tactic that could be used to defeat a phalanx from a frontal assault in reality.

[Frost, colonel]

How about armoured Nellies, not sure about this but didn't Alexanders pikes struggle a bit against them at the Battle of the Hydaspes? They may well chew up a phalanx inviting lovely gaps to exploit, as long as they don't rout back onto you.

[Fanest]

catapults should do the work, balistas, mangonels, onagers etc. these are the right weapons

[Tim_Ward]

Probably not if the phalangites are half-way decent or well led. There's a reason the pike remained a fixture of warfare right up to about 1700. However, if they were lower quality troops, the Roman's might've be able to force their way through the formation with those big-ass shields. Since these would be poorly disciplined and trained troops the sight of the legionaries pushing and hacking their way through the spears might be enough to panic and route the guys holding the spears.

[Frost, colonel]

According to Jack Lusted(CA) the games pikes formations will only be the first 3 ranks sarrisas levelled. He went on to say that after a while units will be able to fight their through them. So heavy inf in the game can fight their way past the points. Expect casualties to be high(hopefully). What worries me is I think I heard that the pikemen won't have the use of a sword(second weapon) as close protection, can someone confirm this.

[O'Hea]

According to Jack Lusted(CA) the games pikes formations will only be the first 3 ranks sarrisas levelled. He went on to say that after a while units will be able to fight their through them. So heavy inf in the game can fight their way past the points. Expect casualties to be high(hopefully). What worries me is I think I heard that the pikemen won't have the use of a sword(second weapon) as close protection, can someone confirm this.

Well there are two different phalanx formations in-game, one for pikemen with the sarissa and one for classical hoplites with the dory. The hoplites and thureophoroi seem to only have spears, no secondary swords, but I'm sure the Macedonian phalangites will have secondary weapons. Lusted explicitly compared the Macedonian phalanx to "Shogun 2's yari spear wall," and the spearwall-capable units in S2 all had sidearms.

[Dan113112]

According to Jack Lusted(CA) the games pikes formations will only be the first 3 ranks sarrisas levelled. He went on to say that after a while units will be able to fight their through them. So heavy inf in the game can fight their way past the points. Expect casualties to be high(hopefully). What worries me is I think I heard that the pikemen won't have the use of a sword(second weapon) as close protection, can someone confirm this.

Men getting past the pikes happened in RTW as well. There wasn't enough of them to really cause concern, though. I hope its the same in TWR2. Men could and did get past the pikes at times in real life. An example is shown in the Battle of Gaugamela in the movie Alexander (2004).

From everything we've seen of them in R2TW, the answer of how to beat on head on is to simply attack it head on and eventually you'll break it...which is bollox.

See above.

[Little Legionaire]

The best way to beat them in a head on clash imo hail of javelins would be great. Plus, i'd pepper them with sling shots and archers before doing that. They're slow moving blocks and they use their sarissas with both hands. That means they cannot raise their shields to block a missile attack efficiently.

Missile fire from range, javelin + shield and short sword armed infantry. And when they allow even a small room for their short sword armed opponents then its gonna be a massacre for Phalangites.

Gustavus Adolphus used similar tactics to counter Imperial Tercios. Spanish Sword Buckler men used it against Swiss pikeman and Romans showed the perfect example of the primal tactics at Macedonian wars.

[Frost, colonel]

The best way to beat them in a head on clash imo hail of javelins would be great. Plus, i'd pepper them with sling shots and archers before doing that. They're slow moving blocks and they use their sarissas with both hands. That means they cannot raise their shields to block a missile attack efficiently.

Missile fire from range, javelin + shield and short sword armed infantry. And when they allow even a small room for their short sword armed opponents then its gonna be a massacre for Phalangites.

Gustavus Adolphus used similar tactics to counter Imperial Tercios. Spanish Sword Buckler men used it against Swiss pikeman and Romans showed the perfect example of the primal tactics at Macedonian wars.

Not sure about this, no disrespect intended, the medium and elite pike units were quite well armoured, greaves, breastplates, helmets. Small shield yes but they could still hunker down against missiles. From a reconstruction video I saw a chap moved the shield via the neck strap. I have not read of the Romans or anyone else taking them down effectivily from the front with missiles. There dense formations so casualties could be replaced, maintaining the formations integrity.

Not sure how well armoured the average 16th centuary pikemen was, no shield that's for sure.

The Romans when fighting the Maks flanked them through a gap between the Maks centre and flank. The other battle when the Romans kicked butt, I think the broken terrain broke up the Phalangites formation, and the Romans got in amongst them. In the first battle before being flanked the Maks were driving the Legions back, suggesting Pila volleys were ineffective.

[DarthShizNit]

From everything we've seen of them in R2TW, the answer of how to beat on head on is to simply attack it head on and eventually you'll break it...which is bollox.

[Tim_Ward]

From everything we've seen of them in R2TW, the answer of how to beat on head on is to simply attack it head on and eventually you'll break it...which is bollox.

Unless you break first, of course. Which, if they perform anything like the spear-wall formation on the Yari ashugari and long-yari ashugari in Shogun 2 is extremely likely. Those guys, especially with the long-spears, could route units of samurai and I imagine most of the pike-block units will be among the more elite units in Rome 2, not bottom tier units like the ashugari.

Basically, attacking a Macedonian phalanx head-on will very much be what we in the trade call a "damn stupid idea", however accurate or not CA's portray is in the specifics.

[xjlxking]

Terrain was their weakness
the Romans used to engage one part of the phalanx while faint attack another part. It worked in breaking the line effectively.

[xjlxking]

Terrain was their weakness
the Romans used to engage one part of the phalanx while faint attack another part. It worked in breaking the line effectively.

[SamueleD]

I enjoy reading up on ancient history but am but no means a historian, so I am wondering if it is possible to ever beat phlangites in a frontal assault (no flanking) if manipular units like Roman Legionaries are used. Since phalangites carry 30 ft. long sarissas, how is it even possible to break their formation if no archers/javelins are used. I can just imagine the wall of sarissas and don't see how it is possible to advance through them with just the use of a short sword.

You don't. And why would you? I mean, what's the point? You don't figh a phalanx head-on without disrupting its formation, it's suicide. Why would you ever try to do something so stupid? Head-on fights are a phalanx strength, why fight it to its strength?

But in the end it's just a wall of pointy sticks: they can be broken, and they don't get past shields, since being so long and heavy they can't really be used for much besides standing there and pushing a bit. I suppose that by protecting yourself with the shield and cutting the sticks while you advance you can get to the soldiers. Also much depends on how well trained are the phalangites, if they are just basic militia, they will end up disrupting the formation simply by fighting.

[GussieFinkNottle]

It was the Roman legions who made the Macedonian phalanx obsolete, so yes they could win in a front-on assault, hiding behind the scutum until up close, then stabbing with the gladius when the sarissa could do no good against them. The phalanx formation was broken up by the pilum javelin hail, and clumsy and outmatched in close combat, which the legionary's equipment was perfectly designed for. Individual legionaries could also exploit rough terrain (see first pic) while the phalanx couldn't survive without breaking formation:

[Mimoxx]

It was the Roman legions who made the Macedonian phalanx obsolete so yes they could win in a front-on assault, hiding behind the scutum until up close, then stabbing with the gladius when the sarissa could do no good against them, with the phalanx formation broken and in close combat:

CORRECT ! I saw a program on history channel explaining why the legionnaire beat any soldier in the battle field , so they show how the legionaire beated the phalanx also and it was head to head, 1st they used the pilums to create caos , after they push with shields all the way win and use the gladius to disablethe sarissa from the sides!!!! really sarissa couldnt do much!!!when they got enough close in the phalnx dude was stabed easely, become a easy target!!!! I always been irritated how some many think phalanx was superior head on