Book about the Punic Wars

**Master.Mind** · August 11, 2013, 01:29 PM

I'm searching for a novel about carthage and the punic wars. Any suggestions?

**SteamPunk** · August 11, 2013, 01:47 PM

Adrian Goldsworthy has written some great books on the subject, and Rome as well. His books are very informative and easy to read.

**Master.Mind** · August 11, 2013, 02:04 PM

Thanks but I was thinking more along the lines of historic fiction instead of history book

**torongill** · August 11, 2013, 02:51 PM

There are IIRC two trilogies in English set in the Punic wars. The first is "Masters of the Sea" by John Stack and is set during the First Punic war. It has some anachronisms and inconsistencies, but overall is equal to better of the quality of Scarrow's Eagle series. It's enjoyable.

The other is a trilogy by Ross Leckie. STAY THE

AWAY FROM THAT GARBAGE! I'm absolutely serious. A better narrative of the Second and third punic war would be to read Polybios, Peter Connolly's Greece and Rome at War or some other non-fiction, or failing that, a wiki page. I sincerely regret wasting my money and more importantly, my time trying to find something not cringeworthy, something encouraging or plainly interesting.

There is another trilogy, but it's by a Spanish author and it's in Spanish. The author is called Santiago Posteguillo and I have "Scipio, the son of the Consul". Unfortunately my Spanish is not yet good enough to permit me to read and enjoy it in original - but the reviews at amazon.com are very, very good. Anyway, the Spanish are very interested in the Second Punic war and since the Iberian theatre is described in detail, they also have lots of archeologists and historians dealing with the matter. By that logic alone I would recommend it - IF you know Spanish.

Also, this wiki page might be of help.

**Master.Mind** · August 11, 2013, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by torongill

There are IIRC two trilogies in English set in the Punic wars. The first is "Masters of the Sea" by John Stack and is set during the First Punic war. It has some anachronisms and inconsistencies, but overall is equal to better of the quality of Scarrow's Eagle series. It's enjoyable.

Sounded interesting, but has some really bad amazon reviews complaining about the inaccuracies ( like slave rowers)
I'm suprised that there is so little fiction about such a famous time period (ok probably not the first punic war, but practically everyone has heard of hannibal and his elephants)
The best (fiction) book I have read about this period is Hannibal by Gisbert Haef.

**torongill** · August 11, 2013, 05:31 PM

My personal opinion is that although to someone knowledgeable the inaccuracies might be evident and spoiling, the average reader's vision of these ships is too "Ben Hur"-ed if I can call it that.
It's true that the naval action seems sometimes taken from Ben Hur, but - and that's a huge but - it is at the same time very true and visceral. I also am of the opinion that the "enemy" characters are too bluntly portrayed, but that's just my opinion.

The bit about the slaves - while it's open to argument whether there were chained slaves driving the ship(the RL evidence and logic would dictate against it) the truth of the matter is that the construction of the ships made the rowers as good as chained - I'm talking about the fact that the boarding passages that led to the oar banks were too narrow to allow more than one file to move. In effect they would be like the passengers of a modern airplane trying to escape through only one door - most of them would've died if the ship sank or caught fire. This is the reason why I can overlook the fact that he talks about slave rowers.
He's also inaccurate, deliberately so(explained in the historical notes) about the ships used in the first two books. The other thing is that he assumes the hastati were more like skirmishers and he also assumes that the marine contingent had hastati, principes and triarii.

True, these are inaccuracies, but the important fact for me is that there aren't other novels about ancient naval warfare - and Stack's naval warfare is well written. Honestly in my view he writes better than Simon Scarrow - and Scarrow's "Eagle" series seem to be in high esteem around here.

As for the lack of novels - It's the earlier times, when the legions were not the "Marines in armor and swords" and when action revolved just in the immediate vicinity of the Med. Second, the relative lack of written sources compared to the Late Republic and the Empire make it more difficult to write.

People know about Hannibal and the elephants, but if you look at Hannibal's battles, he used elephants in only two famous battles. Besides, it would be difficult to write about these wars. We're talking about a war spanning from 264 to 241 BCE and then from 219 BCE(if we start with Saguntum) to 202 BCE. How do you write about wars in which some young and strapping protagonist aged 25 is a 50-year old relic at the end of the First war? How do you write about the Second Punic war, which lasts 16-17 years? People nowadays would have difficulty understanding the concept of being born at the beggining of a war and fighting in the final battles of that war. It's simply too alien IMHO.

That's why it's easier to write about Caesar's conquests, the campaign in Britain, etc.

**Slydessertfox** · August 11, 2013, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by torongill

My personal opinion is that although to someone knowledgeable the inaccuracies might be evident and spoiling, the average reader's vision of these ships is too "Ben Hur"-ed if I can call it that.
It's true that the naval action seems sometimes taken from Ben Hur, but - and that's a huge but - it is at the same time very true and visceral. I also am of the opinion that the "enemy" characters are too bluntly portrayed, but that's just my opinion.

The bit about the slaves - while it's open to argument whether there were chained slaves driving the ship(the RL evidence and logic would dictate against it) the truth of the matter is that the construction of the ships made the rowers as good as chained - I'm talking about the fact that the boarding passages that led to the oar banks were too narrow to allow more than one file to move. In effect they would be like the passengers of a modern airplane trying to escape through only one door - most of them would've died if the ship sank or caught fire. This is the reason why I can overlook the fact that he talks about slave rowers.
He's also inaccurate, deliberately so(explained in the historical notes) about the ships used in the first two books. The other thing is that he assumes the hastati were more like skirmishers and he also assumes that the marine contingent had hastati, principes and triarii.

True, these are inaccuracies, but the important fact for me is that there aren't other novels about ancient naval warfare - and Stack's naval warfare is well written. Honestly in my view he writes better than Simon Scarrow - and Scarrow's "Eagle" series seem to be in high esteem around here.

As for the lack of novels - It's the earlier times, when the legions were not the "Marines in armor and swords" and when action revolved just in the immediate vicinity of the Med. Second, the relative lack of written sources compared to the Late Republic and the Empire make it more difficult to write.

People know about Hannibal and the elephants, but if you look at Hannibal's battles, he used elephants in only two famous battles. Besides, it would be difficult to write about these wars. We're talking about a war spanning from 264 to 241 BCE and then from 219 BCE(if we start with Saguntum) to 202 BCE. How do you write about wars in which some young and strapping protagonist aged 25 is a 50-year old relic at the end of the First war? How do you write about the Second Punic war, which lasts 16-17 years? People nowadays would have difficulty understanding the concept of being born at the beggining of a war and fighting in the final battles of that war. It's simply too alien IMHO.

That's why it's easier to write about Caesar's conquests, the campaign in Britain, etc.

Switch characters a lot. Harry turtledove is a master at that. If there's multiple characters and you introduce more as the war goes on, it makes it a lot more interesting IMO.

**Master.Mind** · August 11, 2013, 05:38 PM

This book sounds interesting http://www.amazon.com/The-Fortune-of...ne+of+Carthage
The only thing that you hear in most documentaries about Hasrubals attempt to link up with Hannibal is that his head was delivered to Hannibal courtesy of the romans.

**eighthgear** · August 12, 2013, 02:56 AM

If anyone is interested in writings from the era itself, Polybius's Histories cover the Punic Wars quite nicely. Livy also goes over them, I believe, but I haven't read Livy. Of course, reading these ancient historians can be a bit tough at times, but it is worth it, in my opinion, to be able to understand the mindset of the people of the era (well, a bit after the era).

**Slydessertfox** · August 12, 2013, 07:49 AM

Livy is more interesting to read, but Polybius is much more accurate.

**HannibalB** · August 15, 2013, 04:21 PM

Try Ben Kane, he is very well read on Hannibal.

**Legio** · August 15, 2013, 06:45 PM

How about a Latin epic poem in two volumes?

If you're looking for something a bit newer, try Pride of Carthage; it isn't half bad.

**Master.Mind** · August 20, 2013, 03:19 PM

Now that I'm supplied with books on carthage, how about Pyrrhus? Apparently he was considered a great general in antiquity (Hannibal even thought he was a better general than he himself), but I have trouble seeing why. Any book recommendations?