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Thread: Iron out Total War tech myths

  1. #41
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    While I can second the first thing you said, the further about the RAM size is really not applicable for gaming at all. It reads like you are saying 32GB RAM is great for gaming. That's not true but I think you know that.
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  2. #42
    SamueleD's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post
    While I can second the first thing you said, the further about the RAM size is really not applicable for gaming at all. It reads like you are saying 32GB RAM is great for gaming. That's not true but I think you know that.
    He's probably trolling alQ, I mean, 256GB of RAM? What's he playing on? A server?
    Last edited by SamueleD; August 12, 2013 at 02:10 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by SamueleD View Post
    He's probably trolling alQ, I mean, 256GB of RAM? What's he playing on? A server?
    nah I play on old msi ex 625, which is a P7350 + 4670m + 4gb of ram + 120gb SSD

    256gb is what is on my workstation that I don't play on it, which is a shame, it has 2x titans + 2x 8 core xeons + 256gb of ram + 2x 512gb pcie SSD in raid 0 + assorted storage, which sits on uni

    indeed the 256gb of ram is great, looking forward to upgrade to 512gb and add 2 more cpus

    but anyway, I didn't say that its good for gaming 32gb of ram, its good for your system to be more responsive and etc.. for gaming I said before 8gb+ is preferable, due to the others apps and OS running on the background, for example, I usually listen to music while playing so iTunes is on, along with chrome for some other tips or boring turns that take too long to happen, or even a movie or something that Im watching while playing, sometimes a book, while some are not common for other users, they will do have some other apps open.

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  4. #44
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Karamazovmm View Post
    nah I play on old msi ex 625, which is a P7350 + 4670m + 4gb of ram + 120gb SSD

    256gb is what is on my workstation that I don't play on it, which is a shame, it has 2x titans + 2x 8 core xeons + 256gb of ram + 2x 512gb pcie SSD in raid 0 + assorted storage, which sits on uni

    indeed the 256gb of ram is great, looking forward to upgrade to 512gb and add 2 more cpus

    but anyway, I didn't say that its good for gaming 32gb of ram, its good for your system to be more responsive and etc.. for gaming I said before 8gb+ is preferable, due to the others apps and OS running on the background, for example, I usually listen to music while playing so iTunes is on, along with chrome for some other tips or boring turns that take too long to happen, or even a movie or something that Im watching while playing, sometimes a book, while some are not common for other users, they will do have some other apps open.
    Quite a workstation you got there!

    Until most games won't be 64-bit I don't think 8GB+ will bring much of a benefit, at least for music and browsers while gaming, but yeah, if you add a movie and some other things they will pile up and eventually you're gonna need more RAM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    64 bits OSes use in general 1.5gb+ add chrome (300-450mb) + AV + music player + other things like messaging app and you get yourself in the house of 3.5gb easily. add that generally games will use around 2gb+ of ram + the Vram of the gpu that they will use, you are left with some spare change in there

    but in the end you are right, more than 8gb is not going to be used in games till you have more 64bit games, which should become a reality specially with DDR4, when the majority of systems will have DDR3 and at least higher than 8gb of ram

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  6. #46
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    your words in gods ears or at least at CA ones.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by alQamar View Post
    Hello everyone,

    added yet another myth: Faster RAM gives you a better performance - Curious? Have a look on the facts in the OP and enjoy.
    In Shogun 2 at least on the CPU side with Intel chips from the Sandy Bridge/ Ivy Bridge and Haswell lineup faster memory does in fact improve minimum FPS

    1066-1600 is about 1-1.5 FPS
    1600- 2133 is another 1-1.5 FPS
    2133 - 2400-2600 is another 1 - 1.5 FPS

    is worth the difference not really but considering a 2133 kit can be had for $10 more than 1600 the extra 2-3 fps paired with an overclock of around 4.2 GHz on Ivy Bridge is infact enough to get the minimum frame rate at or above 30 FPS.

    So faster memory does in fact scale more memory not so much.

    As for VRAM as a matter of fact it does indeed matter when Shogun 2 launched the Nvidia GTX 580 was shown to be much faster than AMD's Radeon HD 6970 what no one realized at the start was the vram limit of 1.5gb ment the game auto reduced settings during battles thus changing the results. Eventually CA seemed to have lowered the Level of Detail render distances and remove or simplify the shaders image quality suffered a small bit which pissed alot of people off but also lowered the VRAM usage by a fairly substantial amount so I rule this as a good thing it helped the game run better on larger assortment of hardware with only a small penalty in image quality.

    AMDs GPU performance in Shogun 2 was unmatched untill the release of Nvidia's GTX 600 series which in the end came a full year after the game had been out. So in retrospect on the hardware the game was optimized for originally AMD GPUs were superior. There is also the fact that AMD never sponsored the game CPU wise AMD's Gaming Evolved program applies to GPUs primarily when a game is optimized for AMD CPUs which pretty much never happens it tends to feature the traditional green AMD logo.

    So while yes the game cant really access more than 4gb of ram the big change is the fact that with DX11 Vram no longer has to be mirrored into system memory. for DX9 the Vram is in fact mirrored into system memory thus having higher memory usage footprint. It doesn't show up but its there due to the way Direct X9 was coded.

    Regardless this thread makes my head hurt

    Karamazovmm good luck.
    Last edited by Crazyeyesreaper; August 12, 2013 at 10:19 PM.
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  8. #48
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    This makes your head hurt? Why? Good luck? Confusing.

    Can you please give me the sources of the talk about RAM. Thank you. Currently with the data I have I cannot second yours but will change it if you can give me the according logfiles proving that.

    Then you posted a long section about GPUs. I never said AMD gpus are crappy. I talked about AMD processors. Thanks for editing your posting at it is confusing. People may think you are defending something I never accused

    The AMD logo at lauch of Shogun 2 represents the efforts AMD made to help CA programming DX11 routines and shaders. No doubt.
    Last edited by alQamar; August 13, 2013 at 02:15 AM.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    Glad my RAM tests cleared up that I spent that money on nothing

    No but seriously, the 7.6% (the 6% are wrong because you rounded) on CPU performance is actually not shabby imho. Of course it just matters to wealthy enthusiasts. You certainly don't need it for TW.
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  10. #50
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    Thank you for backup my opinion.
    And of course it is not worth a penny in case of Total War. I don't want to blame you and your personal decision.

    This thread is about Total War of course and some statements may not apply to other games or software. This thread is called TW myths not hardware myths take me by word lads. Hopefully we do not need nitpicking then.
    Last edited by alQamar; August 13, 2013 at 01:47 AM.
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  11. #51
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    Bumpidy bump
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    I guess Rome2 is coming with it's own benchmark?

  13. #53

    Default Re: Iron out TW tech myths

    Quote Originally Posted by Baldos View Post
    I have a GTX 770 OC with a I5-3570K OC to 4.3GHz & 8G Ram. I get 104 + Fps on Shogun 2 DX 11 Bench ...will I benefit from a 144 Hz LCD Screen?
    check here for a good read

    http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=379248

    p.s gonna get myself a 120hz ips soon...2560x1440.

  14. #54
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    just another one, but thanks for the idea.


    Myth: Monitors with higher refresh rates like 120 or 144 Hz give me a visibly fluent gaming experience and advantage playing a Total War game.

    Answer: Not at all, they are only useful if you use 3D glasses, then the monitor can display 2 pictures with each 60 frames per second instead of 30 frames per second. However your graphics card must be powerful enough to serve this. Usally you need an SLI to have a constant framerate beyond 100 frames per second in Total War.
    Despite from the 3D use it is physically senseless as a human eye cannot see more than 85 pictures per second (aka Hertz (Hz) aka Frames per second (FPS). Who ever tells you he/she has got a visibly better gaming experience with a FPS higher than 85 FPS must have super powers indeed.

    Last edited by alQamar; August 17, 2013 at 03:44 PM.
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  15. #55
    craziii's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    120 ones are perfect for fps games if you played any type of fps games you will know high fps is always better than low fps fps pros, counter strike pros, uses 120 monitors only for games like starcraft 2, high responsiveness is more important. some things you have to experience, it may look logical on paper, but it is very different once you have experience it.
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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    Err. Please note: We are talking about Total War, which is not yet a FPS game, if you read the topics title.

    Still I deny with medical facts that any further "responsiveness" is able to see.
    Your monitor does not display more than it's vertical refresh rate which is usual at 60 frames per second and you cannot see the difference. Imho this is, apart that it is offtopic for Total War really a thing of "imagination" or beyond. I met Fatal1ty once and I do not think he needs more than 85 fps to win, honestly
    Last edited by alQamar; August 17, 2013 at 11:19 AM.
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  17. #57
    craziii's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    it is all about advantage 120 gives about 2-3 fps advantage. in a tourney with high stakes, you want all the advantage you can get

    I know this is about tw + hardware, but you were speaking in very general terms.
    fear is helluva drug
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    “The only rule that ever made sense to me I learned from a history, not an economics, professor at Wharton. "Fear," he used to say, "fear is the most valuable commodity in the universe." That blew me away. "Turn on the TV," he'd say. "What are you seeing? People selling their products? No. People selling the fear of you having to live without their products." freakin' A, was he right. Fear of aging, fear of loneliness, fear of poverty, fear of failure. Fear is the most basic emotion we have. Fear is primal. Fear sells.” WWZ

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  18. #58
    alQamar's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    if you say so.
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  19. #59
    craziii's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    hehe, I do say so.
    fear is helluva drug
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    “The only rule that ever made sense to me I learned from a history, not an economics, professor at Wharton. "Fear," he used to say, "fear is the most valuable commodity in the universe." That blew me away. "Turn on the TV," he'd say. "What are you seeing? People selling their products? No. People selling the fear of you having to live without their products." freakin' A, was he right. Fear of aging, fear of loneliness, fear of poverty, fear of failure. Fear is the most basic emotion we have. Fear is primal. Fear sells.” WWZ

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  20. #60
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    Default Re: Iron out Total War tech myths

    And I agree

    at 30 60 90 and 120 FPS my ability to do well in games improves to a degree

    Using Battlefield 3 as an example

    at 30 fps I average a .75 k/d and around 300 SPM
    at 60 fps I average a 1.15-1.2 k/d and around 350 SPM
    at 90 fps I average 1.5 k/d and 410 SPM
    at 120 fps I average 1.6 k/d and 440 SPM

    in RTS games etc I notice no difference but Racing games / shooters etc the frame rate heavily impacts my ability to do well. This has remained true for Battlefield Bad Company 2 / BF3 / CoD (Call of Duty being based on the older Quake 3 engine actually has specific FPS targets people try to hit because it allows for faster reloads higher jumping ability faster firing etc due to how the game engine was designed. Granted non of this matters in Total War games but it does matter in other titles.
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