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Thread: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

  1. #1

    Default Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Go ahead and bring up anything you would like to see in the mod here.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    If you include gladiators, I would suggest doing so, ONLY if you have Roman slave uprisings or include an uprising faction such as the Rebellion of Spartacus. Other wise it makes little practical sense. Also, if you have Rome fragmented that makes practical sense only if you focus on the civil war periods or after it became a major empire and on occasion had fragments break off into independent factions, though most were brief with the exception of the Western and Eastern Empires. It would be more realistic to have several tribes or fragments of the barbarian peoples than to have a fragmented Rome if this is not the case mentioned above.

    The Germans, for example should have probably the best spearmen with very high attack numbers but low armor and fairly good defensive skill. Germans are in fact one name for the ancient Germanic term for Spearmen. The best bowmen were Syrians and Nubians though the Welsh had strong bowmen at least later they were well known for that. Syrians had very accurate bowmen and heavy armor for the bowman with excellent training. The Nubians had long bowmen probably before anyone else in the world. In fact, the ancient Egyptian name for Nubia was Ta-Setiu, which literally means "land of the bow". The best swordsmen were probably Spanish, Roman, and Thracian, though other factions also had good swordsmen they however did not have as many since this weapon for most cultures was a weapon of the elite and wealthy and therefore not widespread. Greeks technically had the first berserkirs anywhere. It may in fact surprise you to know that the first berserkirs were not men but in fact WOMEN. The Maenads were the first and oldest berserkir tradition I have ever come across. This may well have spread north first to the Thracians and later Dacians then further north to the Germans and Scandinavians. The Germans often seem to quote some of their ancient history and traditions to Greek origins strange as that may sound. I have in fact come across several little tidbits to suggest strongly that some ideas and traditions and perhaps even people some how migrated north from the Aegean.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; September 07, 2013 at 12:23 AM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  3. #3

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    I like all the suggestions except the Greek Women berserkers haha, not being sexist but it just doesn't seem right. Sounds Amazonian.

  4. #4
    Metaluis90's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Despite being such a interesting story to read, I don't think the Maenads would have been warriors, unless someone more acknowledged in the subject could provide some sources of it.

    Anyway, on the matter of adding it or not into the game depends of what the modder wants to portray in the game: is he looking for a historic point or view, or is he taking some artistic licenses for it?

    if the answer is the first one, then no.

    if the answer is the last one, then I would glady accept them, as long as they are well-thought. Reading wikipedia's entry for the Maenads I would think of a sort of druid-like female greek unit only recruitable in the temple of bacchus, for the greek cities.

    I would like to expand cincinnatus' suggestion proposing that factions should have some kind of philosophy regarding units, for example:

    1) Romans should have cheap and efficient regular armies that could top any other average unit, but lack of cavalry and elite units (with the exception of th extraordinarii and latin allies, but those can also be recruited by other factions, if an AOR is implemented); when marian reforms kicks out, romans should rely more on numbers and training of their troops.
    2) Carthage should rely on foreing mercenary troop; altough pretty decent, their lack of "sprit-de-corps" makes them lack of morale, so only a capable general could take the best of the troops. Its local, punic troops is decent at best and with limited use (maybe guard duty). Lybian-phoenician units should be the core of the armies
    3) Gauls should rely on numbers of warbands with decent morale but crappy armor. Their elites should be few (in numbers, maybe 60-men unit in huge) but critical if well used. Some region-only units could be a nice addition (belgian cavalry, galatian units)
    4) Greeks should have strong but expensive units, to portray their middle class going to war, so they have limited army numbers. Their cavalry and skimirshers should be below average or decent at most (because they're slaves or poor men, in the case of the skirmisher, or they lack of specialised regions where cavalry can develop, of course, with the exception of Thessalia)
    5) Macedon should be similar to rome: regular but efficient troops, more access to elites (companions, hypaptist, hetaroi)
    6) Seleucid's army core should be a small greek elite, and a wide choose of asian local troops (median, bactrian, anatolian, arab, jew, etc) trained both in the local and greek way. Because of their various origins, they should have a below-average morale, but good training.
    7) Ptolemies, contrary to their Seleucid counterpart, should rely on the greek minority for their armies, relaying less on the local machimoi. Some galatian mercenaries should be able to be recruited in Alexandria. I think ptolemies' regulars should have a better morale than the Seleucid regular army, since they're closer to the royal family, due their greek origin.
    8) Partians, as people know, should rely on its cavalry. Their local infantry could be the worst of the game. The only decent infantry may be the greek hoplite that they could recruit from the seleucid cities, but they must be low in numbers and below the greek average.

    Of course, this is just brainstorming and if I you don't agree with me, post your thoughts!!

    I also would like to see longer battles and a better balance for the non-roman factions; for the first suggestion, maybe adding points to melee and cavalry units' defence could make the drift?
    Last edited by Metaluis90; September 17, 2013 at 10:43 AM.
    "Rules without exceptions last eternally; Roman Law is the only law"
    "The mighty sword in mighty Roman hands"

  5. #5

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Thank you for the suggestions, I'll keep them in mind for upcoming versions. Hopefully, this mod can get some attention with my next release. I know Rome 2 is super popular but people will come back to RTW eventually

  6. #6
    Zephyronian's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Ahowl11 coud you use this unit texture for spartans?
    Attached Files Attached Files

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    there are to many forts and troops are scattered everywhere (romans) , in the next mod you should include etruscans and samnites and divide the greeks into sparta, athens, corinth and so on... but i very much like what you have done to the map it's lots more cooler than the original

  9. #9

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Yes, I understand that it is a little different. We may cut down on the generals a little bit but Philadelphos has the final call.
    We would love to include as many factions as possible, but unfortunately there are only 21 slots available. Too bad it can't be like Rome 2 huh?
    We love the map as well

  10. #10
    GeorgiBG's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Quote Originally Posted by ahowl11 View Post
    Yes, I understand that it is a little different. We may cut down on the generals a little bit but Philadelphos has the final call.
    We would love to include as many factions as possible, but unfortunately there are only 21 slots available. Too bad it can't be like Rome 2 huh?
    We love the map as well
    Too good it can't be like Rome 2. YEAH!


  11. #11

  12. #12

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    well yeah i get that this isn't rome 2 (actually i dont like rome 2 very much i prefer rome), and this is honestly the best mod i've ever played but it's really a shame that you can't include more factions i mean at that time the greeks were different the spartans had military strenght the athenians had intelligence you know what i mean and i was glad you at least included epirus into the game that's awesome especially the elephants you know i would rather group barbarians or pontus armenia and so into kingdoms in case of that limitation of 21 factions or you could include just sparta athens and epirus and the independent kingdoms could be rebels the only thing i dont get in the game are gauls in asia minor were they really there??

  13. #13

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Faction slots will always be an issue with RTW but it's what makes so many different mods interesting because some have different factions than others.
    Yes, the Gauls were in Galatia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

  14. #14

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    wow cool i did not now that i was trying to help you put this game together you know

  15. #15

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    The story of the Maenids is they were created in vengeance to a king who had dishonored the god, Dionysus. He was the god of pleasure and wine and though he was usually pretty merry and light hearted, if he were angered which probably took more to anger him than other gods, he could be one of the meanest and toughest of all gods in the myths. Supposedly in punishment, he sent a madness upon the women of the king's household who then tore him apart bare handed. They were supposedly also used to keep watch on the temples of Dionysus after this and are the first recorded known incident of any kind of berserkir type warrior, or a person who is consumed by mind altering substances or rage and emotion to then inflict great destruction and harm upon enemies. Though, true berserkirs could not always control the rage once it consumed them and therefore limit said destructive force to enemies only. Maenids are depicted in some games and mods. In one they carry a giant spear but no armor other than a short kilt like dress. They could very well be like the amazons in the sense they were so mysterious and difficult to find evidence of that they became myth or legend. This is not to say that neither existed, there are rumors of a female force today in Russia fighting against them Guerilla style, so, if they did exist it may well be they covered their tracks so well that hard evidence is hard to come by or perhaps they were not as wide spread as other cultural elements since they were essentially limited to areas of worship or favor by Dionysus. Whether or not they were used in war is also difficult to say at this moment. Though since some elements of Greek culture migrated far and wide, including to the north, it is theoretically possible that whether true or not, they story of the Maenids and the method of becoming wild with rage or mind altering substances may well have been carried into the Germanic lands and later HIbernia where other beserkir like soldiers later appeared. Maenids trace back at least to about 1200 bc, Hibernian beserkirs trace to about the middle of the 4th century ad, and Germanic berserkirs, though could be older, the concept of berserkirs only appears perhaps as early as the Roman Republic maybe in the 3rd century bc or later. It is about this time that early contact and some migrations occurred across Europe for the Germanic barbarians.

    I honestly do not believe Carthagenian troops lacked morale, they were every bit as well trained and cohesive as the Romans for the most part. They were more cohesive in some ways and perhaps less in others. They did lack the same degree of heavy armor as Romans and while they were well experienced veteran soldiers and well trained they may not have been quite as well drilled, however, they more than likely had more experience then the average Roman soldier. These were almost akin to the Nazi Troops in WWII when green Americans arrived on the scene. The margin of quality in difference is not very great as both were great world powers and their professional grade militaries were part of the reason.

    Native Carthegenian troops probably had much less experience and honestly less training but they probably had better armor and weapons than most typical non native and merc Carthegenian soldiers.

    Gaul had great warriors, brave, fast, not well disciplined, but well trained in combat however singular combat more than working as part of a cohesive military force in the sense of proving one's worth as a warrior. They did have very good weapons. Their armor was sparse save for a shield and/or helmets for the most part if they had any. The nobles and some elite warriors however would have had pretty good armor.

    The Idea the Greeks have limited numbers kind of flies in the face of actual battles where the Greeks outnumbered the Romans. Macedon outnumbered them in at least one famous battle in the Northern parts of Greece. The Greeks had low cost good armor made from layers of cloth which gave it a modern day kevlar like resilience and strength against weapons. In tests with replicas of such armor, it was proven very effective by modern historians such as Mike Rhodes. Wealthier Greeks may have had even better armor. Even in the past the Greeks could put up fairly substantial numbers within even a few powerful city states let alone larger regions such as what Macedon possessed. Remember at Marathon they had about 50,000. And do not forget their use of lighter troops such as slingers, peltasts, some archers such as the Cretan style, and the lighter more mobile spearmen soldiers such as the thorakitai. This could give them even greater numbers in times of war or other national sort of need. Only Sparta was fairly weak however it had a influx of foreign settler which Sparta used to bolster it's dwindling forces. Epirius too had access to fairly sizable forces that dwindled with his costly victories. Perhaps this is an example of a Greek power with somewhat limited numerical numbers you mean, however they had access to large forces, where they differed was their ability to replenish them as fully or as quickly as Rome.

    That is true of Selucia, but there were a few peoples within Selucia that would have had a better than average AOR unit and morale available to whoever possessed the region such as the Syrian class of archers, and Judean light infantry and slingers. These native units might be among the exceptions along with the crack units of Selucia and even to an extent its regular standing army.

    Yes Parthia mostly used its horse archers and elite heavy pre-knight knightly armored cavalry forces.

    Gaul should probably have as few provinces as possible yet rapid growth, limited settlement advancement, high population, cheap warband troops, some cavalry, at least AOR Veneti Galley's, which were among the most advanced ships of the ancient world and if you look, they resemble later Age of Exploration ships than any other culture's ships.

    Illyrian pirates should probably be mostly, quick lightly armed skirmisher types with spears and swords as a close quarters weapon.

    One way to differentiate the Greek factions is divide them into their major leagues like the Aetolian League and the Achaean League, it wouldnt get all cities but most that were anything of an collectively strong force among the many Greek city states.

    Diadochi included technically, Macedon, Ptolemys, Selucia, Bactria, Epirius, formerly Lysemacher and Antigonus, break offs of Bactria, Parthia, Pergomon, and Pontus. Lesser Diadochi might be another faction to include the other lesser great Greek States but still make them somewhat different. This would leave out the Bosphorus, Marsilla, Cyrene, and Syracuse however which formed along slightly different lines even though the Bosphorous was at one time part of the original Persian Empire. It might be possible to script in or use a emerging faction option if certain conditions are met so that one or the other powerful lesser states rises from broken remnants of otherwise notable threats and make it more interesting and perhaps reflect realism to a slightly better degree. The most notable of the lesser Greek factions are Syracuse, Pergemon, Athens, Sparta, and perhaps Thebes. Corinth is usually depicted as part of Macedon or strongly allied to them so rarely do they have a substantial independent presence.
    Last edited by Cincinatus; November 05, 2013 at 01:48 PM.
    "It is worth while for those who disdain all human things for money, and who suppose that there is no room either for great honor or virtue, except where wealth is found, to listen to his story."
    - Livy 3.26

  16. #16

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    You make some good points. I'd like to see what Philadelphos thinks of this.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    you should make it so you can train spartan hoplitres (in sparta only of course), and better cavalry cause in this mod even if you build an elite cavalry stable you cannot train praetorian cavalry and better greek cavalry...

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Recruitable characters as in EB (could make bodyguards pretty small so it doesn't provide too many elite cavalry)
    Different types of government (colonised and allied client state)
    Manpower (as in Diadochi Total War to prevent AI spamming armies too much from middle game on) - Romans to get higher than average manpower as this was their greatest strength historically
    Sea battles (apparently possible in Rome Total War - Genghis Khan Total War has them, though they look terrible in it (ships bobbing up and down like rubber ducks in a bathtub)
    Storms random event (if possible) - any fleet not at port when a storm happens takes attrition or lost entirely (happened to the Romans in the First Punic War)
    Pirate bases on land - if eliminated reduces pirate spawn rate

  19. #19

    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Recruitable Characters: Very good idea, have thought about it myself. Roma Surrectum had Governors recruitable.
    Government: I believe there are plans for that
    Manpower: Explain how DTW does this? I'm interested
    Sea Battles: Not going to happen. Just not worth it with RTW engine
    Storms: Already happen. I had one destroy a ship carrying a full stack from Sparta to Syracuse playing as GCS in a VANILLA campaign!
    Pirates: Don't believe this is possible. Simply having a rebel settlement with a port and the ability to recruit ships would suffice, but I am not sure if there could be a script made where, once the port was conquered the spawn rate went down. Interesting though.

    Basically we all have to wait for Philadelphos for progress. It could be some time, but he may be around once he gets off from University (he's a professor) for Christmas. He is most active in the Summer.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Suggestions/Ideas/Proposals

    Manpower: Explain how DTW does this? I'm interested
    I have no idea how they do it. I downloaded the mod though and when i tried a few turns of it it had buildings that increased or decreased manpower increase rate. Will post in their forums and ask them.

    Pirates: Don't believe this is possible. Simply having a rebel settlement with a port and the ability to recruit ships would suffice, but I am not sure if there could be a script made where, once the port was conquered the spawn rate went down. Interesting though.
    yeah i suppose just having small rebel settlements in difficult to get at places like Cilicia and Illyria would represent it pretty well.

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