Roman Cavalry

[PlPs]

Hello there folks!

First, this mod is fantastic. but, there is a little detail really annoys me. it's Roman Cavalries(lance/spear cav), they can't kill anyone. I tried them in many battles but they kill just a few enemy soldiers but lose many, even Praetorians. is there any fix or something for this which I missed?

[DochtorGajo]

Well the problem is all cavalry units in this mod need very close attention if you want them to charge properly and utilize their bonus. Its allways better to click enemy units once to make them charge, otherwise, especially when you make them charge again in quick succession by double click, they many times fail to do this properly even if you move them away a fair distance in my own experience. They should also allways be regrouped before you charge again, with no soldiers being left back.

As to the roman cavalry specifically, if used properly, they pack quite a punch against anything but phalanx, hoplites and some other dangerous units, though they need many passes to finally finish off single unit, if used face to face one against another, but they should be able to do it quite well against semidecent infantry. If they have spears and at least 30 charge value, otherwise, especially with swords and against better infantry, they dont have much chance even from the back, unless they break opposition quickly. But they surely arent one of the best in game.

[DochtorGajo]

Sorry for double post, crappy net in our area. :-D

[athanaric]

Rome isn't really a cavalry faction, so you'll have to use them accordingly. Roman cavalry units including auxiliaries (of which they get many) are primarily good for skirmishing and chasing routers. This is also reflected in the Roman bodyguard unit, which is built around survivability (good armour, speed, and stamina) rather than staying power (like KH or Sweboz) or hammer tactics (Diadochoi etc.).
Some units are good at charging, but on the whole they can't compete with Hellenistic or Iranian factions in this regard.
That said, it is important for Romani to field some cavalry in every army, in order to retain tactical flexibility. Especially in early to mid game when you encounter naked fanatics, it's good to have some lancers and javelin-armed cavalry around. Make sure to recruit Gallic heavies (Brihentin) when you have the chance, they're a notch above most other cavalry units the Romans can field.

[Entropy Judge]

Hello there folks!

First, this mod is fantastic. but, there is a little detail really annoys me. it's Roman Cavalries(lance/spear cav), they can't kill anyone. I tried them in many battles but they kill just a few enemy soldiers but lose many, even Praetorians. is there any fix or something for this which I missed?

Hm, how are you charging? That is, are you charging from far enough away, and are they actually dropping their lances? (Side note: As mentioned by DochtorGajo, Overhand Spear cavalry do not charge particularly effectively, you should be using Equites Extraordinarii for your Roman Charge Cavalry ... or Brihentin, or one of the Greek Shock Cavalry units.) Don't keep them in melee, either, unless you're up against other Cavalry, because stopped Cavalry will drop very quickly against nearly every infantry unit.

Other cavalry units - in particular, the Campanian and Ligurians - are mainly skirmishers, as they cannot charge effectively and desperately hope to avoid melee contact with anything that's heavier than themselves.

[Glaive]

You have to micro-manage your cavalry. I'm playing Baktria at the moment, and even though they have incredibly heavy cavalry I still have to keep an eye on them.

Keep you horses fresh, only charge the flanks or rear and then pull them out of the melee. Also, be aware of your cavalry's secondary weapon (usually some type of sword) that can be used by holding down the alt key then clicking on your enemy as normal.

[PlPs]

Thanks for the replies all

Yes, I'm talking about "Overhand Spear cavalry" they can't charge nor good in melee. why? they must be usefull in one of them, IMHO. :/

[athanaric]

Yes, I'm talking about "Overhand Spear cavalry" they can't charge nor good in melee. why? they must be usefull in one of them, IMHO. :/

They're decent against light infantry (like archers) or light skirmisher cavalry.

[etchedingifts]

Hi Guys,
Same issue I am facing.

[Perdiccas]

Sometimes they're effective. I am Epirus. I was in a battle againsit Camillian Rome which I was winning easily.

I got lazy thinking i was mop up time in the battle. I exposed the Right flank of my phalanx by releasing my protecting Samnites to chase routers.

2 units of Campanian Cavalry smashed in the rear of my engaged Elite Phalanx and absolutely slaughtered them!!!! My best phalanx troops were dying like flies. Only a charge by Pyhrrus and elephants saved them.

so I got a lesson in proper use of Cav.

[Hummer]

I find Companion Cavalry quite effective but I never use them as a main battle field tool. That's what your Hastati and Principies are for. I always keep them behind my infantry line until the enemy is engaged before running them around, behind the enemy to do one of several things.

1. Chase archers, slingers or skirmishers.
2. Chase other light cavalry.
3. Charge into the rear of light infantry already engaged with my infantry (though I hesitate to charge into a heavy infantry unit, even from behind)
4. Chase routers.

Roman Citizen Cavalry is almost the same as Companion except you can't throw javelins.
If you want to use Heavy Cavalry more prominently in battle, I would recommend hiring mercenaries or playing with a different faction that has better cavalry.
Rome was never good with Cavalry. They were infantry centred and only used cavalry in secondary roles.

Although as Perdiccas mentioned, sometimes they can surprise you. I just wouldn't depend on it.

Cheers

[athanaric]

2 units of Campanian Cavalry smashed in the rear of my engaged Elite Phalanx and absolutely slaughtered them!!!!

Campanians have only a small charge bonus, but AP swords and a relatively high attack. Also, these horsemen were probably fresh or had some other advantage. And being a human player, you didn't exploit the phalanx glitch. Normally however, if you charge the AI's phalangites in the rear with anything, they just turn their pikes around due to some glitch, as if they were lightsabres. It's incredibly annoying.

I find Companion Cavalry quite effective but I never use them as a main battle field tool.

You mean Campanian cavalry The distinction is important because Companion cavalry (= Hetairoi) are a terrifying entity in EB battles.

[Hummer]

You mean Campanian cavalry The distinction is important because Companion cavalry (= Hetairoi) are a terrifying entity in EB battles.

My bad

[Boriak]

In essence: don't use cavalry that uses their spears in an over-handed way as a hammer against heavy infantry. These guys are good against skirmishers, chasing routers, against cavalry itself (do switch to secondary weapons, please) or to present a momentary pressure on a line that is about to buckle. These guys tend to have charge bonus 27 or sometimes less.

If you want to use your cavalry in the Alexandrian way, hire those units that couch their spears (underhand way?) when they charge. All these units have charge bonuses 30 or higher. Even these shouldn't be allowed to remain in hand to hand combat with infantry. The heavier the enemy infantry, the less time your cavalry has before it's cut down. And they will go down if you don't pay attention.

Cavalry, even the heaviest, should be used as a dagger. Quick repeating thrusts, each stab causing more damage until the enemy units are too perforated to hold. What you don't do is draw them through the enemy's tissue. If you want to rake the enemy as with a plow, use elephants (or chariots against lighter and looser infantry).

Edit: Oh, and about cavalry like Campanians (light Iberians also have similar qualities as do Tarantines): use these guys as skirmishers, for chasing routers, or in taking out enemy's light cavalry. They can also be used to hold heavier cavalry long enough to get reinforcements but it will cost you. I'm still learning how to properly use these guys.

[IGdood]

The trick that I do with Eqvites Romani is that I use them to chase skirmishers and archers. As long as they are stuck in "pursuit mode" the enemy is either in "marching" or "fighting' status but they cannot really harm the cavalrymen as they gallop around hitting the men. However, as soon as you see your cavalry enter "fighting" mode double click them out of there before they start dying.

Using this technique guarantees a withering attack on enemy ranged units with little casualties. If you're using cataphracts, you don't need to use this technique. They will work well in sustained combat.

[Petite Wolf]

Cavalry like Eqvites Romani and Campanians are the kind of cavalry that should only be used to charge enemy infantry in one of two circumstances (IMO at least). The first is if some of the enemy infantry are shaking or wavering and your breaking of them could help you easier win the battle. For example, breaking one flank of the enemy so you can then use those units to wrap up the enemy line.

The second circumstance is if you're desperate. What I mean by this is that if you think your infantry are going to lose the battle without help and your cavalry don't have any enemy cavalry, skirmishers, etc to deal with, but are instead completely free to continually strike the back of the enemy line, then do what you need to. There are have been times where I've had to use repeated charges in to the back of infantry with Campanians in order to help turn the tides. Campanians, Eqvites Romani, etc. may not be the best cavalry in the world and may not have the best charge, but they are most definitely useful when you need them. You just have to remember to always keep an eye on them and pull them out the very moment their status changes from "Charging" to "Fighting".

[jmlinden7]

Eqvites Romani are just bad. If you want effective light charging cavalry, hire some Illyrian or Gallic mercenary light cav. If you want a cav unit to melee enemy units, then Campanians are good for that with their AP swords and high defense stats. If you want true heavy cavalry to just smash people, then you need Eqvites Extraordinarii, Brihentin (Gallic Heavies), or Thessalians. They still aren't quite as good as other factions' heavy cav, but they get the job done.

In general, overhand spear cavalry suck at charging because they don't have the armor penetration stat that longer lance cav have.

The best way to use Campanians is as a counter to enemy heavy units. Have a unit of cheap spearmen tie up the enemy heavies, and then use the Campanians to flank around and tear into them with javelins and AP swords. They're also tanky enough to ignore most missile fire.

[Petite Wolf]

Oh I completely agree. Only use Eqvites Romani if you have no other choice. My previous post was a "if you've got no other cavalry at hand and you have to use them, then they still can be useful" kind of post, not a "Use them because they're good!" because they're not good. In fact, they're terrible.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Good posts all.

Summary: Roman cavalry exists to harass and tie up the enemy cavalry and/or light missile infantry until the legionaries smash the enemy heavy infantry. After that, it doesn't matter if the Roman cavalry get routed - the enemy cavalry / missile infantry generally can't defeat the Roman legionaries on their own, so the battle is won. So in Roman tactics, cavalry is a secondary, supporting arm for the heavy infantry, not the primary striking arm as it is for the Macedonians. (The Romans actually have a similiar attitude to cavalry as the Greeks (Koinon Hellenon).

Of course, this heavy infantry centered strategy doesn't work against horse archers and cataphracts like the Parthians and Sauromatae... but the Roman legion wasn't designed to face them.

[Brihentin13]

The good news about facing horse archer enemies when playing as Rome is that by the time you enter a conflict with a horse archer heavy faction, you will likely have achieved the Marian reforms. As such, your infantry can put their Roman discipline to good use with a testudo formation. The enemy arrows will bounce harmlessly away until they either flee or idiotically rush you with light cavalry. At that point, you can unleash your admittedly sub-par Roman cavalry to chase down their broken cavalry units as they flee back to the steppes screaming in fear of the Republic.