Recruitment and Replenishing Ranks

[omzdog]

Let's say I have a general with an army of ashigaru in a province able to recruit 3 yari ashigaru in one turn.
I just got done with an epic pitched battle and some of my units are in the red.
Even though I can recruit their numbers in 2-3 turns, their full replenishment will take 7-8.

Someone has explaining to do if this same system will be in R2.

[killua]

You know you can also recruit a couple of yaris and merge them with your depleted ones ?

[omzdog]

Costs money and decreases experience.
Replenishment is free.

[Tim_Ward]

Replenishment also depletes experience.

[omzdog]

Oh?
Well you didn't have to tell me that.
I could have been happy thinking my experienced units were keeping what they understood about fighting.

But the point remains. Replenishment takes time yet the province can fully recruit these units in no time at all.
I believe an explanation is warranted.

[Tim_Ward]

But the point remains. Replenishment takes time yet the province can fully recruit these units in no time at all.
I believe an explanation is warranted.

Recruitment costs money. Trade offs.

[DavidtheDuke]

Recruitment costs money. Trade offs.

It's basically a mobile free retraining system. The only time I don't think it should work is in enemy territory, and that's exactly how S2 works, so R2 will probably be the same.

[CnConrad]

Oh?
Well you didn't have to tell me that.
I could have been happy thinking my experienced units were keeping what they understood about fighting.

But the point remains. Replenishment takes time yet the province can fully recruit these units in no time at all.
I believe an explanation is warranted.

Im pretty sure you already explained it yourself...


"Costs money and decreases experience." - Faster yet costly
"Replenishment is free." - Slower yet free way to replenish an army.

Gameplay > Realism.


You are asking for the free way to replenish armies be the fastest. Do you not see a problem with that?

[blaizer]

The thing is you aren't paying the recruitment cost when the units are replenishing. You do still pay full upkeep for units with few men, which makes sense given that you don't pay to replenish the units so the extra upkeep can be seen to go to training and transporting the new recruits who enter the unit each turn. I suppose you could make a decision as to whether you want to pay the recruitment fee and replace the old units with entirely new ones, or to pay less and wait a few turns longer to get the same number of new men.

Let's say I have a general with an army of ashigaru in a province able to recruit 3 yari ashigaru in one turn.
I just got done with an epic pitched battle and some of my units are in the red.

I for one would much rather that battles create the added strategic choices that result from having a damaged army. If the units replenished very quickly after each battle for free, my actions in battle regarding management of each unit would be less meaningful.

[omzdog]

Why is it the same expense to recruit in a province that has 1 turn replenishment as it is in a province that can't even recruit that unit? It begs explanation and I hope this doesn't show up in R2 because its a terrible and lazy system.

If they go to that degree as a trade off, I'd imagine a graduated upkeep for replenishing units at least.

[DarrenTotalWar]

You cannot move while recruiting. You can move while Replenishing. Problem solved, close thread

[omzdog]

That still doesn't address the fact that badly damaged units have the same upkeep as less damaged units in the same province, or that the same damaged unit has the same upkeep in different provinces with vastly different replenishment speeds.

Point is the replenishment is obviously not tied down to upkeep which should be the case if the trade off is payment when recruiting full units.

[DavidtheDuke]

That still doesn't address the fact that badly damaged units have the same upkeep as less damaged units in the same province, or that the same damaged unit has the same upkeep in different provinces with vastly different replenishment speeds.

Point is the replenishment is obviously not tied down to upkeep which should be the case if the trade off is payment when recruiting full units.

You could easily explain that in that the soldier's are having to be retrained and marched towards the unit.

[General Maximus]

I am wondering that too. Playing Napoleon Total War as the great Empereur himself, one of my armies (led by Ney) was badly bashed near Dresden even though it won. Replenishing one of the musketeer units took more than 4 turns. I wish to know why it took 4 turns when I could recruit the same fresh new unit from Dresden in one turn, with all the men in arms.

I guess it has to do something with experience, but I am not sure.

[omzdog]

Napoleon had the worst of it probably because it was the first of the series to feature the concept.
I remember uninstalling and giving it some time, thinking they'd clean up replenishing ranks to at least reflect their system of recruitment.

I was shocked to find very little had changed in Shogun2 and will be disappointed if the same is found in Rome2.

Also, replenishing in vassal territory is terrible and needs fixing. To take my example of S2, regardless of the buildings in the vassal city, even ashigaru would take 15-19 turns for full replenishment if hit badly. Of course I have no idea why this is the case, other than to make the game as inconsistent as possible. God willing, it will not be in R2.

You could easily explain that in that the soldier's are having to be retrained and marched towards the unit.

We've accommodated for that fact already. You pay full price even for damaged units to cover that charge, but there is no difference if that process takes more turns.

Say an ashigaru unit taking 8 turns to recover versus one taking 3 turns has no difference. Small fact, but one that tells us that replenishment is not equal to upkeep or its cost. Or even that a unit not replenishing still costs full upkeep.

Am I missing something here?

[DavidtheDuke]

We've accommodated for that fact already. You pay full price even for damaged units to cover that charge, but there is no difference if that process takes more turns.

Say an ashigaru unit taking 8 turns to recover versus one taking 3 turns has no difference. Small fact, but one that tells us that replenishment is not equal to upkeep or its cost. Or even that a unit not replenishing still costs full upkeep.

Am I missing something here?

You're missing that you could go and recruit a new unit and march it to the army that is autoreplenishing. The system is meant convey you would naturally do that, however if you want you can march them back. The only thing I'd say to your points is a unit should pull from the replenishment pool of the region if it is in inside the settlement (if you request it).

[DavidtheDuke]

We've accommodated for that fact already. You pay full price even for damaged units to cover that charge, but there is no difference if that process takes more turns.

Say an ashigaru unit taking 8 turns to recover versus one taking 3 turns has no difference. Small fact, but one that tells us that replenishment is not equal to upkeep or its cost. Or even that a unit not replenishing still costs full upkeep.

Am I missing something here?

You're missing that you could go and recruit a new unit and march it to the army that is autoreplenishing. The system is meant convey you would naturally do that, however if you want you can march them back. The only thing I'd say to your points is a unit should pull from the replenishment pool of the region if it is in inside the settlement (if you request it).

[pphair]

The way I see it is:
1. When a unit is at full strength, the upkeep represents the cost of feeding and basically maintaining equipment and gear.
2. When a unit is damaged, the upkeep represents the maintenance of the remaining soldiers as well as the cost of bringing the new recruits.
3. The infrastructure of a region is what influences reinforcement rate. The new recruits can only join in certain amounts depending on how advanced infrastructure is. I think of it like trying to drive several hundred cars on a road at once, the level of road, its speed limit, entries, fuel stations, etc will determine how fast the cars can reach their destination.
4. Recruiting a new unit doesn't take into account the position of a unit because it is automatically generated in the settlement, and the higher input cost(than upkeep I mean) implies more resources are being spent to generate the new unit.
5. Its a game, not everything has to make perfect sense.

[General Maximus]

In RTW and Medieval II, the player didn't have to pay full upkeep for understrength units. I can confirm this. I hope this feature returns again.

[pphair]

In RTW and Medieval II, the player didn't have to pay full upkeep for understrength units. I can confirm this. I hope this feature returns again.

Personally, I'd see that as a step backwards, retraining units was a pain, especially if you were in a newly captured building without military buildings.