Archers Hidden!

[jamreal18]

Which do you prefer?

For me, I want them to remain hidden..., that is the point of ambush... you dont know where your enemies are... Aside from that, there are still arrow trails in the game.... right?

Hiding archers in previous games means only surprise... after one volley you are not hidden anymore...

Just my opinion...

[Sun Jetzu]

Stay the same as its always been. if archers are not hidden why should they be so.

[jamreal18]

I think hidding archers in previous games means only to surprise your enemy, because they reveal themselves when firing and the enemy can easily know where they are and kill them...

[Sun Jetzu]

I think hidding archers in previous games means only to surprise your enemy, because they reveal themselves when firing and the enemy can easily know where they are and kill them...

yea but thats how it would be in real life though. unless trees were covering them or something. Then they should remain hidden. I could totally see how this would get annoying if all the archer units could do it.

[Yayattasa]

I think hidding archers in previous games means only to surprise your enemy, because they reveal themselves when firing and the enemy can easily know where they are and kill them...

But you could keep a unit of spearmen in front of them (which would also be hidden); if the enemy cavalry tried to charge your archers, then a pile of dead horses and riders would form. If they tried reforming to attack your position en masse, you could flank them with the rest of your forces/cavalry (which you should keep at another point, not that far).
You could also do it the other way around, attacking with your main force and, after the engagement began, reveal your archers right behind his formation.

[jamreal18]

It could bring immersion... If you are the one one being ambushed, you will have to quickly decide whether to retreat or just go ahead while your men are being massacred....

[sleepyx732]

Yeah if someone shoots an arrow at me, judging by it's trajectory I'll be able to apply common sense to the situation and know the archers approximate location. Just head in ------> that direction.

Would they still be hidden? Yes. Will they be hidden for long? Unfortunately for them, no. Unless of course they moved elsewhere..

Know what I'm saying? In short, if an archer fires at my units, they should still be of hidden status so I can't see them on the battle map, but I'll know the approximate location from which they fired. They may or may not still be there by the time I send a unit over there.

[jamreal18]

Yeah if someone shoots an arrow at me, judging by it's trajectory I'll be able to apply common sense to the situation and know the archers approximate location. Just head in ------> that direction.

Would they still be hidden? Yes. Will they be hidden for long? Unfortunately for them, no. Unless of course they moved elsewhere..

Know what I'm saying? In short, if an archer fires at my units, they should still be of hidden status so I can't see them on the battle map, but I'll know the approximate location from which they fired. They may or may not still be there by the time I send a unit over there.

Agree!

[Sun Jetzu]

Yeah if someone shoots an arrow at me, judging by it's trajectory I'll be able to apply common sense to the situation and know the archers approximate location. Just head in ------> that direction.

Would they still be hidden? Yes. Will they be hidden for long? Unfortunately for them, no. Unless of course they moved elsewhere..

Know what I'm saying? In short, if an archer fires at my units, they should still be of hidden status so I can't see them on the battle map, but I'll know the approximate location from which they fired. They may or may not still be there by the time I send a unit over there.

Good idea, archers shouldnt be beasting like crossbowmen though. You'd have to debuff them a bit, to make it worth the ability to remain hidden. It is not that hard to have your units fire once and quickly remove them from the battlefield. Could skirmish units do it? Could pilla/spear units do this also? Would only some units be able to do it or would units have some type of sneak skill? Because I think if I were crossing a forest and suddenly got pelted by Pilla, then not be able to find the unit without being at unit level. would be fricken tough!

[Kissaki]

I think they should remain hidden until discovered by proximity. If you're marching -- and remember you do not have the benefit of bird's eye perspective -- you will not be able to know immediately where arrows are coming from. At first you will be able to deduce a general direction, but even so you will not be able to know the distance unless you can see the enemy. But when that is said, archers who cannot see their targets are shooting blind -- whether it is their own infantry in front of them, or they are inside a forest. They don't have bird's eye perspective, either, and unless they are at the very edge of the forest, their line of sight will be obscured by trees. And friendly units will blind them unless they or their targets are standing on an elevation, allowing the archers to see above friendly units.

But as the player does have the benefit of bird's eye perspective, this degree of realism might easily be annoying. And this is all a bit moot, anyway, so long as we still have those ridiculous tracer-round arrows.

[jamreal18]

What if you plan to fire 3 volleys only, then move elsewhere on the map? The enemy should be confused because by the time because he goes to that direction, you are no longer there... He will have no clue how many archers you are controlling...

[RandyRhoads]

In 1 of the latest interviews Al Bickam said projectiles wont pass through surfaces. What if I hide my archers in a little forrest for a surprise attack on their flank but half of them fire point blank in a tree?

[ritatud]

The game looks great both in the visual sense and in the gameplay

[Sun Jetzu]

In 1 of the latest interviews Al Bickam said projectiles wont pass through surfaces. What if I hide my archers in a little forrest for a surprise attack on their flank but half of them fire point blank in a tree?

Then most arrows wont hit them, making Suebi real hard to kill.

[RandyRhoads]

Then most arrows wont hit them, making Suebi real hard to kill.

I mean my half my archers not being able to hit anything. They will get cover from the trees but at the cost of having only half of them shoot.

[Sun Jetzu]

I mean my half my archers not being able to hit anything. They will get cover from the trees but at the cost of having only half of them shoot.

Not unless archers and other unit actually hide behind trees instead of just crouching down. I never even thought of this

[perablenta]

Since you can't fire arrows with no arc unless you're at point-blank range that means that if your bowmen are inside a forest they would have to fire through tree branches and leafs. That means that most of the arrows wout not even get out of the forest and the ones that did would be off target.

As for the ambushing part if you can't see a unit while 200 men are standing around 50 meters away from you you won't see them if they are firing arrows either.

Forests should make arrows close to useless and not just if your firing into a forest but when you're firing out of one, something that Shogun 2 ignored.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

As long as the trails are legit, why not? But yeah, if you get shot from somewhere by arrows you will know what direction they came from. It's common sense that if you can't actually see the archers but know the direction they are shooting from, your mind will automatically search for the most likeliest area of concealment it's coming from.

When it comes to archer not being able to shoot through surfaces? I also remember reading that somewhere. If so, yeah it would be good to have a lot of arrows getting stuck in trees to just show how hard it is when firing in an out of a forest.

[Kissaki]

As long as the trails are legit, why not? But yeah, if you get shot from somewhere by arrows you will know what direction they came from. It's common sense that if you can't actually see the archers but know the direction they are shooting from, your mind will automatically search for the most likeliest area of concealment it's coming from.

Common sense is not a factor when you're being shot at. If you are the one hit by the arrow you will certainly not be in a good position to judge, and even if it's an arrow hitting a comrade close to you, it will be difficult to gauge where the shot came from, because you were caught unawares. You can tell left or right, back or front, but specific angles are going to be difficult to guess at. If you can spot the incoming volley, fine, but a concealed archer unit is likely going to shoot into your flanks if it intends to stay concealed.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Common sense is not a factor when you're being shot at. If you are the one hit by the arrow you will certainly not be in a good position to judge, and even if it's an arrow hitting a comrade close to you, it will be difficult to gauge where the shot came from, because you were caught unawares. You can tell left or right, back or front, but specific angles are going to be difficult to guess at. If you can spot the incoming volley, fine, but a concealed archer unit is likely going to shoot into your flanks if it intends to stay concealed.

I never said angle, I said direction. Once you know what direction it came from, guessing exactly where it came from will be much more easier to do. Once you figure out the direction, you then look at what kind of cover is in that direction if those archers are not out in the open. Besides, we're only talking about 100 metres or maybe more, if that.

On the common sense part, you know what I mean. Don't look too much into it. Obviously if you're caught off-guard you won't instantly know where it came from but you will know where it came from once you realise you've been targeted. Arrows stick in the ground or will ricochet and continue in that direction. Arrows will get stuck in shields and people. You'd immediately be able to realise what direction they're coming from even if you did not see them airborne.