Rome II Complaint Thread

[PROMETHEUS ts]

This is an extremely important issue for me ...
The testudo portrayed so far by the game and I coudl see in pictures seems to be just a shieldrising over the heads and not a proper well formed testudo ...

Perhaps it is a automatic reaction of soldiers to arrow fire , perhaps there are two different types of testudo ...

but surely doesn't look like the "proper" testudo performed by disciplined roman troops .

The testudo was described as so thick that no arrow could pass throught and so strong that a chariot with horses could walk on it ...

something completely different from what showed

a very good representation was the one gived in RTWI ...

So will it be possible to see some pictures of the "proper" Roman testudo ?
The Testudo needs to be closed from all sides apart the back and advance slowly ...

Sure they coudl also perform faster ones and some with open sides but those are not the proper testudo and the so much Iconic formation performed in reality by the ancient roman soldiers ...

So please will we have the proper testudo?


Among all of the different things I am complaining of this game ( apart the things I like that do not need much discussion ) this testudo thing is what bothers me above all and more than anything worrying me . I coudl even live with all the other campaign choices as long as are moddable , but a complex formation like a testudo hardly woudl be moddable and anyway is something so iconic that needs to be properly done by default .

It was perfectly represented in RTWI , do the same for RTWII as well please .
I am not asking for all the many other formations or romans like ORbis , anticavalry etc, but just that the Testudo is properly represented with closed sides and thick shields interlocking and slow movement .

"This testudo and the way in which it is formed are as follows. The Baggage animals, the light-armed troops, and the cavalry are placed in the center of the army. The heavy-armed troops who use the oblong, curved, and cylindrical shields are drawn up around the outside, making a rectangular figure, and, facing outward and holding their arms at the ready, they enclose the rest. The others who have flat shields, form a compact body in the center and raise their shields over the heads of all the others, so that nothing but shields can be seen in every part of the phalanx alike and all the men by the density of the formation are under shelter from missiles. Indeed, it is so marvelously strong that men can walk upon it and whenever they come to a narrow ravine, even horses and vehicles can be driven over it."

Cassius Dio

I can live with all the other unprecisions of the game , historical mistakes, errors , campaign design and so on , but at least make a good decent testudo .

[Lord Dakier]

"The testudo was described as so thick that no arrow could pass throught and so strong that a chariot with horses could walk on it..."

Prometheus, if you think that wasn't just Roman chest-beating then you'd be embarrassing yourself. The testudo had gaps in, it was just damn well hard to place an arrow so perfectly through the ones that was showing.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

"The testudo was described as so thick that no arrow could pass throught and so strong that a chariot with horses could walk on it..."

Prometheus, if you think that wasn't just Roman chest-beating then you'd be embarrassing yourself. The testudo had gaps in, it was just damn well hard to place an arrow so perfectly through the ones that was showing.

I don't think so :

"This testudo and the way in which it is formed are as follows. The Baggage animals, the light-armed troops, and the cavalry are placed in the center of the army. The heavy-armed troops who use the oblong, curved, and cylindrical shields are drawn up around the outside, making a rectangular figure, and, facing outward and holding their arms at the ready, they enclose the rest. The others who have flat shields, form a compact body in the center and raise their shields over the heads of all the others, so that nothing but shields can be seen in every part of the phalanx alike and all the men by the density of the formation are under shelter from missiles. Indeed, it is so marvelously strong that men can walk upon it and whenever they come to a narrow ravine, even horses and vehicles can be driven over it."

Cassius Dio

It holds a metaphoric description but it is used to give the idea of how was thick and strong , surely not just a shield rised packed formation with open sides .

[Baronmanfred]

If thousands of aztec spears and javelins and rocks couldn't bypass a thin piece of spanish armor, then how does a rock bypass an entire shield wall made mostly of wood that has elastic properties just like the palmetto tree in the american revolution that could bounce cannon balls off of it?

(Please use your brains when considering the timeline/technological differences in context and just realize this is just a comparison of primitive tools vs superior [at the time] tactics.)

Not to mention the curved shield is essentially "sloped armor" which scientifically increases its effectiveness.

[Baronmanfred]

Yes and pebbles thrown at it cause the shields to splinter...

[Baronmanfred]

I for one think that the food surplus resource is highly under-utilized. I lack the proficiency for modding as of yet but I do want to start a modding script that ties army size and/or number of Armies to the food surplus.

Pretty sure I don't need to find some long lost historical reference for this considering its the most ignored and most obvious limitation to empire expansion.

[Ahmad al-Fareed]

i think he has made a thread for the testudo like thrice
it seems to be such a huuuge issue to him xD

[ashbery76]

A single light horse weights what around 500 kilograms so I doubt the little men back then would not buckle.

[nubcaker]

Stop complaining about a feature you haven't properly seen yet. Just wait until the game launches, try using the testudo, and THEN come back to make threads about it.

[epar]

Stop complaining about a feature you haven't properly seen yet. Just wait until the game launches, try using the testudo, and THEN come back to make threads about it.

This.

[Ahmad al-Fareed]

i always thought the proper one was impractical anyway - from a gameplay perspective
did u use it in rome 1?

ath the other hand i have to admit the one shown in the teutoburg trailer didnt look like a proper testudo but with 4 weeks to go, i have doubts ca will change anything

[PROMETHEUS ts]

i always thought the proper one was impractical anyway - from a gameplay perspective
did u use it in rome 1?

ath the other hand i have to admit the one shown in the teutoburg trailer didnt look like a proper testudo but with 4 weeks to go, i have doubts ca will change anything

There is another picture of the testudo performed by some romans in the latest scans of a magazine published some days ago , probably from the Introductory campaign ... shows romans with rised shields advancing and no sides covered or closed .

[Kissaki]

There is another picture of the testudo performed by some romans in the latest scans of a magazine published some days ago , probably from the Introductory campaign ... shows romans with rised shields advancing and no sides covered or closed .

Could you provide a link or an image so that we can see the CA version ourselves?

[Rittsy]

If this is the biggest problem Rome II has I'll probably be spending most of my September indoors, warmed by the glow of my computer screen.

[Siven]

Interesting.........another minor cosmetic complaint by this guy.

Yeah....whatever.

[gaunty14]

If I was able to play RTW with Arcani/Screeching Women and an appalling unhistorical portrayal of Hellenic, Carthaginians, Barbarians, Roman and Eastern factions...come to think of it every faction

I think I can survive this detail. Who knows maybe you need to research the full testudo formation and in RTW2 (like the level of bayonet in ETW?)

[Ahmad al-Fareed]

he has opened his own thread to express his concerns. i think as long as he doesnt spam other threads it should be his good right to complain as much as he want. :p

[DogSoldierSPQR]

The Testudo is a big issue. It may not have been used all that much except for sieges but it was an iconic thing of the Romans. I really do hope that the Testudo that was shown in the Tuetoberg gameplay was just a simple automated formation where they just lift their shields up for arrows. I personally, along with Prometheus, would like to have a Testudo formation button in which I can press when I want to have a solid, mobile formation.

The Testudo that was shown would still be effective but it's not the Testudo that should be in there. It's visual appearance is very important.

from a gameplay perspective did u use it in rome 1?

It's a very efficient way to get your best troops as close as possible to the enemies walls while wasting their arrows in the process. Except for those towers, but whenever the archers do fire, this formation is very effective. You don't have to want it or use it, but this formation opened up potential for more tactics when sieging and goading enemy archers.

[Stavroforos]

Dio's description of the testudo has me a bit confuse. All the men with cylindrical shields, so most likely the heavy infantry legionaries, are all facing outwards in a rectangular shape, while the shields which are placed above are from flat shields, meaning most likely other troops such as auxiliaries or perhaps dismounted cavalry. I assume that this is simply the case when traveling in a baggage train, and that on the field whenever the formation would be used it would be used in a century of regular heavy infantry legionaries with the cylindrical shields, in which case there would be exposed areas on the tops of the shields where the vertical shields met the horizontal ones, through which arrows could pass through.

My question is that if soldiers were all facing outwards, there is no way that it was a mobile formation, and as far as Dio's description goes, it's not meant to be, since the formation will remain immobile while the enemy unleashes their arrows and then go back into formation when the enemy approaches for the melee. The only time a testudo formation would be mobile would be in the case of a siege, where the soldiers would advance under their raised shields to reach the enemy wall or to go up a ramp. However, if it's mobile, that necessitates that the right side of a testudo be exposed, since that would be the sword arm side of the troops on the extreme right. However, this wouldn't really matter since they would be getting attacked from above and not from the sides.

So basically, a testudo with all sides covered can only be formed if the unit remains static and immobile.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Dio's description of the testudo has me a bit confuse. All the men with cylindrical shields, so most likely the heavy infantry legionaries, are all facing outwards in a rectangular shape, while the shields which are placed above are from flat shields, meaning most likely other troops such as auxiliaries or perhaps dismounted cavalry. I assume that this is simply the case when traveling in a baggage train, and that on the field whenever the formation would be used it would be used in a century of regular heavy infantry legionaries with the cylindrical shields, in which case there would be exposed areas on the tops of the shields where the vertical shields met the horizontal ones, through which arrows could pass through.

My question is that if soldiers were all facing outwards, there is no way that it was a mobile formation, and as far as Dio's description goes, it's not meant to be, since the formation will remain immobile while the enemy unleashes their arrows and then go back into formation when the enemy approaches for the melee. The only time a testudo formation would be mobile would be in the case of a siege, where the soldiers would advance under their raised shields to reach the enemy wall or to go up a ramp. However, if it's mobile, that necessitates that the right side of a testudo be exposed, since that would be the sword arm side of the troops on the extreme right. However, this wouldn't really matter since they would be getting attacked from above and not from the sides.

So basically, a testudo with all sides covered can only be formed if the unit remains static and immobile.

no there are other attestation of it used during sieges and approaching cities , its a roman military tyical and well known formation , you can see lot of reenactors performing it and walk around .