Questions about Principles and Archers

[ooji]

I have just recently started playing EB, and I like how the AI is better than vanilla rome and many other mods. However, I am bit confused by the animation that principles have. I can see them having a short sword, but it appears they never use it. If that's the case, I'd much rather prefer my hastati over principles. Why is that? Also, I noticed many spear units have better attack stat than sword units? How does that work?
Lastly, I am baffled as to why archer and javelin units are so ineffective in the mod. Realistically speaking, shooting volleys of arrows at a single militia spearmen would decimate them, yet best I can do with 4 sets of archers against them is 15 casualties before they close in to fight in melee. It really doesn't seem realistic at all. Same thing with javelins. I don't suppose throwing a javelin to kill a man is that hard. Not to mention that javelins went through shields many lower class units had too. Given the limited ammo of 4 to 5 for most units, I would expect at least 1 casualty in my enemy per 2 spears thrown at them. Can anyone help me understand these things? I have EB 1.1, tried to install 1.2 and downloaded it, but it never actually worked.

[Entropy Judge]

I have just recently started playing EB, and I like how the AI is better than vanilla rome and many other mods. However, I am bit confused by the animation that principles have. I can see them having a short sword, but it appears they never use it. If that's the case, I'd much rather prefer my hastati over principles. Why is that?

I assume you mean Camillan Principes? Yes, the model has a sword, but since the game can only handle two weapons per unit, they have the Pilum and the Spear. Polybian Principes have a sword; still, don't use C Hastati in place of C Principes, as they are almost strictly inferior.

Also, I noticed many spear units have better attack stat than sword units? How does that work?

In previous versions of the game, Spear units had the spear attribute that lowers their Attack against other Infantry; at some point, that was switched so they have the one that lowers Defense, but the stats were never adjusted.

Lastly, I am baffled as to why archer and javelin units are so ineffective in the mod. Realistically speaking, shooting volleys of arrows at a single militia spearmen would decimate them, yet best I can do with 4 sets of archers against them is 15 casualties before they close in to fight in melee. It really doesn't seem realistic at all.

Actually, something you'll note is that nearly every unit in the game has somewhat decent armour, and quite frequently a rather large shield. Big Shields work very well at preventing arrows from getting at the squishy bits (javelins too). If you want to use Archers, try to flank (or get behind) lightly-armoured units. Historically speaking, archers were not major killers; their bows tended to be too weak and the prevalence of shields and armour meant that they would generally only cause injuries.

Same thing with javelins. I don't suppose throwing a javelin to kill a man is that hard. Not to mention that javelins went through shields many lower class units had too.

Actually, shields do give quite good protection against javelins, most of which would be relatively light. Same rules as for Archers apply - try to get around the shield before you start loosing the stickers.

Given the limited ammo of 4 to 5 for most units, I would expect at least 1 casualty in my enemy per 2 spears thrown at them. Can anyone help me understand these things?

Most units only have 2-3, actually, though Skirmishers usually have six. As for how effective javelins were? You'll need some supplies - a friend, a kickball, a baseball helmet, some boots, and one of those old trash-can lids (or some piece of plywood roughly the size of your torso). Now, have your friend stand 30-40 feet away from you and try to peg your squishy bits with the kickball - if he hits the helmet, the shield, or the boots, you've probably survived the javelin.

[ooji]

Concerning archers and skirmishers, what is their actual purpose if they can't even inflict decent damage? Cannon fodders? They're worthless in melee and have about 20 arrows from what I observed. Many eastern cultures depended on their powerful composite bows right? I surrounded a militia phlagilite unit with my horse archers and shot them and it was like throwing pencils at a rock wall. I simply couldn't kill the damn militia unit even with surround! I mean we're not even talking about the elite units, even they died from arrows. I guess what I am expecting is more like Fourth Age mod archer effectiveness.
If arrows and spears were that ineffective, why did people even bother throwing them? I see so many cultures with units that throw their spears before charging and the actual damage done by spears is very very small.

[athanaric]

If arrows and spears were that ineffective, why did people even bother throwing them? I see so many cultures with units that throw their spears before charging and the actual damage done by spears is very very small.

Missiles in EB are still very effective against unarmoured or weakly armoured units, even from the front. This applies to most basic units, and most "Barbarian" or "Nomadic" units as well (they can dish out a lot of missile damage but can't take a lot of punishment).
Also, javelins are very powerful against elephants, and even a unit of basic crap skirmishers (Akontistai, Gund-î Paltâ, Iovamann) can pose a serious threat to an extremely expensive elephant corps. A unit of mounted skirmishers is certain death for an enemy elephant unit one on one, unless they get caught in melee of course. Javelin units is the main reason why you should always guard your elephants with some decent cavalry (e.g. Prodromoi).
Archers OTOH can use flaming arrows to cause panic (especially on units with inferior morale, such as elephants and scythed chariots) and to destroy siege equipment (yes, even sapping points). Archers or slingers placed on a stone wall can really hurt enemy forces, and due to the bonus they get when stationed up there, can cause much more damage to enemy units, even to phalangites and heavy cavalry. A town with a stone wall and a couple of units of Kretan Archers is a very well-defended town indeed.

Playing with Sweboz, Casse, Saba, or Lusotannan involves a lot of running and placing your skirmishers in the right way. Micro-management is important in EB, especially with those underdog factions. Same applies to the three Iranian factions, although in their case it's more horse archers and less javelins.

For added hilarity, try assaulting one of the rebel Indian or African cities, and make their elephant units panic by using missile units.

[ooji]

Thanks for the reply, just a quick clarification question of Camilian Principles. Are you saying that even though they have spear holding animation in melee, they fight as sword units? For some reason, my principles seem to hold much better against cavalry than infantry, so I assumed they were spear units and not as effective as Hastati in taking out enemy infantry.
As for stats of spear units, you're saying that the stat is messed up, but with some nerfs, spear units are still inferior to sword units in melee? Thanks!

[TWWolfe]

never shoot or throw javelins directly at the front of a unit with shields. shields in EB provide a hell of a defense against archers from the front. what you want to do is try and get on thier flanks and fire into either thier sides or thier rear. slingers in particular are deadly at this, since thier missiles have the AP ability, and will tear through armor easily with just one or two Chevrons. Archers can inflict slightly more casulties, but in general will mainly just thin out or disorganize the enemy. as for javelins, there are a few (roman Pila, soliferrum) types in game that are considered heavy, but most are light and again will not do much against a shield.

[Glaive]

Always flank with ranged units, preferably attacking from behind or on your enemies right flank (the shield can still block missiles fired from the left). Most javelin troops are rubbish, but peltasti and Thrakian peltastai are very good.

You have to remember that historically the Romans weren't known for their missile troops and the game reflects this. Play one of the Eastern factions and you'll see that skirmisher troop in EB can be battle winners.

[Entropy Judge]

Thanks for the reply, just a quick clarification question of Camilian Principles. Are you saying that even though they have spear holding animation in melee, they fight as sword units? For some reason, my principles seem to hold much better against cavalry than infantry, so I assumed they were spear units and not as effective as Hastati in taking out enemy infantry.
As for stats of spear units, you're saying that the stat is messed up, but with some nerfs, spear units are still inferior to sword units in melee? Thanks!

Other way around; Camillan Principes are spear units even though their model also has them with a sword. They are, however, more effective than Camillan Hastati, as they have higher Attack and better Lethality. Spear units originally had a trait that gave them -4 to their Attack when fighting Infantry and were given extra Attack to compensate; when they were changed so they have a -4 to Defense instead, their stats weren't adjusted.

Concerning archers and skirmishers, what is their actual purpose if they can't even inflict decent damage? Cannon fodders? They're worthless in melee and have about 20 arrows from what I observed. Many eastern cultures depended on their powerful composite bows right? I surrounded a militia phlagilite unit with my horse archers and shot them and it was like throwing pencils at a rock wall. I simply couldn't kill the damn militia unit even with surround! I mean we're not even talking about the elite units, even they died from arrows. I guess what I am expecting is more like Fourth Age mod archer effectiveness.

Depends on the unit; Peltastai and the Thracian variant, for example, are very dangerous melee combatants, and several Archer units make for pretty decent melee in a pinch. But missile units can and do inflict heavy damage (not against phalangites - they're ... odd ... and you shouldn't base interactions with other units off your interactions with them), so long as you either flank or get behind them.

If arrows and spears were that ineffective, why did people even bother throwing them? I see so many cultures with units that throw their spears before charging and the actual damage done by spears is very very small.

Because arrows are annoying, and they do cause some casualties, and they force your enemies to stand around holding their shields up (and get tired) or else attack you quickly (hopefully before they're ready). Pre-charge or counter-charge javelins disrupt the opposing side (either breaking up the charge's momentum or disrupting the defensive line) and can remove the shield from active use.

[Principe Alessandro]

With the Arabian skirmisher cavalry I destroyed armies of Silver Shields and Pezhetairoi by simply placing some units in front of the phalanx and others in their side and back, in this manner as the phalanx turned against one unit of skirmishers was always hit in the back and sides.

Skirmisher units can be really deadly if correctly employed. It isn't just placing the unit and expecting to see kill enemies as they shoot their arrows as seen in some Hollywood movies.

[Petite Wolf]

The quality of the missile units is also important. I can't remember if anyone above mentioned it - I would assume so - but you will see drastically different results when using, for example, Cretan Archers - I'm too lazy to use the actual spellings so will just use the English spellings - as opposed to just basic Toxotai.

The main thing, though, is to just think logically. If you're firing from the front or from the left, do they have a big shield they're holding that could protect them from harm? Do they have heavy armour on? If so, then just seek out less protected flanks. Even with less protected flanks, if the unit is heavily armoured archers will probably have less of an impact than slingers will, simply because of their armour piercing trait. I think a lot of it comes down to both positioning and targets. For example, I tend to target less armoured units with my archers because I know they will have an impact, whereas I typically leave my slingers for more heavily armoured units. One good example of why is the following.

I was playing as the Casse, Aedui or Arverni - I don't remember which - and was fighting the Romans. I had both slingers and archers - their native names escape me at the moment - and at some point during the battle I brought them round behind the enemy forces. I had the archers firing flaming arrows in to the backs of the Roman Triarii with minimal casualties if any, simply because of their armour, whereas slingers firing in to their backs dropped them like flies. In this situation it probably would have been better for me to choose a lesser armoured target for my archers to fire upon while my slingers dealt with the Triarii.

Next time you're in a battle and are using skirmishers or other missile units of some kind, think a little bit more about priority targets. Which unit would your current missile units be best served targeting? Are you using archers or slingers or skirmishers? Or a mixture of the three? Which target would be best suited for each individual unit and from which position? These are just some basic things you should be thinking about, and you'll notice that the moment you start thinking like this and applying it, your effectiveness will improve quite a bit.

Hope I helped <3

[Entropy Judge]

The quality of the missile units is also important. I can't remember if anyone above mentioned it - I would assume so - but you will see drastically different results when using, for example, Cretan Archers - I'm too lazy to use the actual spellings so will just use the English spellings - as opposed to just basic Toxotai.
...
I was playing as the Casse, Aedui or Arverni - I don't remember which - and was fighting the Romans. I had both slingers and archers - their native names escape me at the moment - and at some point during the battle I brought them round behind the enemy forces.

I can't believe I didn't bring up this point, but yes, it's very important to take into account unit quality. Basic Hellenic Toxotai are, bar none, the worst archer unit in the game, with crap range, crap damage, and crap ammo capacity. They are closely followed by Sotaroas (Celtic Archers) and Skudjonez (Germanic Archers), but at least those two have a melee attack that won't leave them better off cutting their own throats. (That is, Toxotai and Sotaroas have identical missile stats, but Sotaroas have almost-usable melee stats, while Skudjonez have an extra point of Attack for both Missile and Melee, and have slightly better Skill but less Armor than Sotaroas.) On a side note, how the heck are you guys making paragraphs? I don't know if it's my browser or what, but I can't make paragraphs in either quick reply or full reply It makes me very unhappy because I have trouble figuring out whether I'm making replies to the right points.

[Glaive]

On a side note, how the heck are you guys making paragraphs? I don't know if it's my browser or what, but I can't make paragraphs in either quick reply or full reply It makes me very unhappy because I have trouble figuring out whether I'm making replies to the right points.

Just use the enter key.

[Petite Wolf]

Making paragraphs? I just hit enter two times so it goes down two lines and there's a space between paragraphs.

[ooji]

My Western history knowledge is rather limited, but persians finished off the last of spartan force with archers correct? If an elite heavily armored unit like spartan dies from frontal arrows, how does it make sense that they suffer very small casualties in EB? I guess what I'm expecting is more like LOTR archer effectiveness as seen in Fourth Age mod. Would that be too unrealistic historically speaking? Thanks for the replies guys.

[Glaive]

but persians finished off the last of spartan force with archers correct?

Do you mean at Thermopylae?

[athanaric]

If an elite heavily armored unit like spartan dies from frontal arrows, how does it make sense that they suffer very small casualties in EB?

Generally speaking, an elite hoplite's large shield and heavy armour would have rendered them almost immune to arrows, especially if their formation was intact. Arrows are efficient missiles but they were not very great at piercing the heavier armour types of their respective time period. Tests done by (mostly amateur) experimental historians/archaeologists show that arrows fare poorly against maille or other kinds of quality metal armour (e.g. scale, or segmented armour), especially if the armour was worn in conjunction with a gambeson or something similar. Plate is particularly difficult to pierce with arrows. This is also supported by the archaeological evidence as well as by primary written sources.
After all, arrows and other missiles are one of the main reasons why people wore armour and shields at all, probably even the main reason.

I guess what I'm expecting is more like LOTR archer effectiveness as seen in Fourth Age mod. Would that be too unrealistic historically speaking?

Yes. FATW features more powerful and/or evolved bows than EB, most of them are basically Medieval English longbows. Also, LotR based games and mods traditionally award huge bonuses to Elvish archers, for instance Elven archer units in the current version of FATW have the "armour piercing" attribute, which adds to their already excellent stats. Whether those bonuses are justified by lore, or by the laws of physics, is another question entirely.

One of the dumbest/cheesiest scenes in the "Return of the King" movie (which had many cheesy scenes) was when a plate-armoured Gondor sentinel was killed by Orcish archers... firing from below. Into the breast plate. Fortunately, FATW doesn't take its cues from that movie, but the archer issue is still somewhat similar.

[ooji]

Do you mean at Thermopylae?

Yes, I meant at Thermopylae. Persians didn't want to suffer any more casualties, so they used their archers to kill of the spartans (spartans' most despised weapon) correct?

One of the dumbest/cheesiest scenes in the "Return of the King" movie (which had many cheesy scenes) was when a plate-armoured Gondor sentinel was killed by Orcish archers... firing from below. Into the breast plate. Fortunately, FATW doesn't take its cues from that movie, but the archer issue is still somewhat similar.

Now that I think of it, all of the fully armored knight have been killed off by archers huh? That's really weird considering how well the knights have been armored.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Re the Macedonian-type phalanx units, if they are too tough for your missile troops, try doing what I did, reduce their shield rating from 5 to 3. Makes them somewhat vulnerable to arrows even from the front.

(BTW, Classical hoplites which have massive round shields have a shield rating of 4. I figured, why should phalangites have a better shield rating from a smaller and lighter shield? Makes no sense to me.)

[athanaric]

(BTW, Classical hoplites which have massive round shields have a shield rating of 4. I figured, why should phalangites have a better shield rating from a smaller and lighter shield? Makes no sense to me.)

The shield rating takes into account the mass of pikes that would present an additional obstacle for arrows. But I suppose a slightly lower shield rating is justified, at least for the militia phalanx units.

[Boriak]

Doesn't the shield's defense count as double value against missiles in RTW?