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Thread: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

  1. #61

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Just watched this and they have naval combat the wrong way around.
    They say that little ships have trouble causing ram damage while larger ships seem to be the primary RAM damage dealers.
    This is the opposite to how it actually was. You would try to RAM with your zippier smaller lighter ships and board with your larger ships.

    Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games..

  2. #62

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    first ever post .... meh

  3. #63

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex View Post
    Just watched this and they have naval combat the wrong way around.
    They say that little ships have trouble causing ram damage while larger ships seem to be the primary RAM damage dealers.
    This is the opposite to how it actually was. You would try to RAM with your zippier smaller lighter ships and board with your larger ships.
    and how would YOU know exaclty how naval battles were fought over 2000 years ago? were you there or did you find their naval battle tactix manual?

  4. #64
    Vallon's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red River View Post
    and how would YOU know exaclty how naval battles were fought over 2000 years ago? were you there or did you find their naval battle tactix manual?
    What a stupid statement.. You know, some people actually study history instead of wanking off to 300 and Spartacus.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vallon View Post
    What a stupid statement.. You know, some people actually study history instead of wanking off to 300 and Spartacus.
    That Persian bloke was pretty fit though.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vallon View Post
    What a stupid statement.. You know, some people actually study history instead of wanking off to 300 and Spartacus.
    Fair enough.

    Though as someone that hasn't studied the history a whole lot (I have never really considered history to be a strong part of the Total War games), on its face it is a bit tricky. How much smaller were the speedier ships? The only reason why I ask is because, on some level, the mass is going to still cause serious issues, even with a ram and a perfect 90 degree hit on the side of the ship.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
    Fair enough.

    Though as someone that hasn't studied the history a whole lot (I have never really considered history to be a strong part of the Total War games), on its face it is a bit tricky. How much smaller were the speedier ships? The only reason why I ask is because, on some level, the mass is going to still cause serious issues, even with a ram and a perfect 90 degree hit on the side of the ship.
    I think the bigger mass of the bigger ships would actually be worse for it. The smaller ship only needs enough force to send a small ram through wooden planks, the heavier mass will stop the larger ship from moving which will make it absorb the full impact. Remember, just because the ship is bigger doesn't make it stronger structure wise. You're still just punching through wooden boards.

  8. #68
    vietanh797's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    It's true that no matter how big a ship is a hole cause by ramming will make it sunk
    Normally you ram and pull back, no need to board the enemies ship since once water get inside the ship lost all the maneuver ability and will sink if the crew don't fix the hole in time.
    Smaller ships are much more maneuverable which make them idea for ramming battle.
    Empire II and Medieval III pls

  9. #69

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by vietanh797 View Post
    It's true that no matter how big a ship is a hole cause by ramming will make it sunk
    Normally you ram and pull back, no need to board the enemies ship since once water get inside the ship lost all the maneuver ability and will sink if the crew don't fix the hole in time.
    Smaller ships are much more maneuverable which make them idea for ramming battle.
    Let me explain in a little more detail. I have 5 or so books specialising on naval battles of the period.

    Larger ships will have a greater impact when the hit and will cause more damage. However larger ships are so slow to turn that it is almost a given that any good captain on smaller ship can avoid larger ships rams. If you hold a ship in place to be rammed by a larger ship. fine. But it is a huge waste of the larger ships potential.
    Larger ships were built for boarding actions. They were usually of a heavier build than smaller ships and much wider to hold more marines. They act like giant forts, grappling and boarding.
    The battle of actium was a victory for smaller ships swarming larger ships to ram them. The idea for a smaller ship is to pass an opposing ship and then turn into it to ram it in the side, the rear quarter being the perfect place. Interestingly ships DID NOT usually sink. Because they were usually of wood and light construction a lot of them could be towed off after battle. The ramming primarily disabled the enemy by stopping it from manoevering. A rammed ship was basically a dead duck in the water. Waiting for the clean up operation after battle.

    Essentially ships especially triremes were built so lightly that they could (and usually would) just be dragged up onto beaches for lunch or as soon as bad weather showed itself! More time permitting also dried out for even more speed. Galleys in ancient times could not stay on station long because they were light on supplies and food. Not much was carried. Whole fleets blockaded by capturing nearby islands or dragging galleys up onto beaches to hold position that way. simply patrolling and hoping they had time to mobilise when enemy supply ships or fleets sallied.

    Factions usually built fleets either as fast rammers with hardly any marines or heavily (heavier wood and construction) built boarding ships of the larger variety. Before Roman times some ships needed to reach critical speed before ramming because they did not have re-enforced prows and would crumple on impact with the enemy ship otherwise!!!

    Ships were disabled rom FIRE, RAMMING or BOARDING. Artillery in most battles played almost no real part. Being either to innaccurate to hit fast moving ships or simply having no effect on what are fairly large wooden objects.

    It should be noted that sails were taken DOWN for battle so they did not get ruined or catch fire. Again at actium it was a sign that the enemy wanted to run that they did not do this!

    So you see. ROME2 tactics should not revolve around getting larger naval units to smash smaller ones. They should be used for boarding and threatening or scattering an enemy fleet with boarding. Sure if a larger ship does happen to ram devestation should be awesome, but usually they are just large targets or forts from which any who dare to approach should beware.

    What I am guessing we will get in rome2:
    (i) Sniper artillery ships acting like a moving galley is an easy place to shoot from. Please consider how hard it is to be with catapult s we use in total war on land!
    (ii) Large ships coming up to speed just as fast as the lighter purpose built rammers and turning like tie fighters (remember rowers can row backwards to turn at a cost in speed)
    (iii) No ability to shoot rowers or helmsmen to disrupt enemy manoevers
    (iv) Ships running around at full speed like dogem cars with no real appreciation of anything naval. No wind, tides, shallows or deep water which all affect speed and manoever.
    (vi) No ability to launch blockading fleets. They will simply stay afloat for years. It was very common for blockading fleets to simply mobilise too slowly to catch blockade runners!
    (vii) No ability or control over rowers use of oars or the way the ship is handled. It will plain and simple be like shogun2. Boring and simplistic??
    Last edited by Destraex; July 29, 2013 at 10:25 PM.

    Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games..

  10. #70

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex View Post
    Just watched this and they have naval combat the wrong way around.
    They say that little ships have trouble causing ram damage while larger ships seem to be the primary RAM damage dealers.
    This is the opposite to how it actually was. You would try to RAM with your zippier smaller lighter ships and board with your larger ships.
    Was it? Didn't the Triremes absolutely rule at ramming because they were huge and had three stacked rows of rowmen?

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyPoopCereal View Post
    Was it? Didn't the Triremes absolutely rule at ramming because they were huge and had three stacked rows of rowmen?
    I agree. Wasn't the Quinquereme designed to ram through enemy ships and get away as soon as possible?

  12. #72

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan113112 View Post
    I agree. Wasn't the Quinquereme designed to ram through enemy ships and get away as soon as possible?
    Are we missing the Pentaremes?

  13. #73

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan113112 View Post
    I agree. Wasn't the Quinquereme designed to ram through enemy ships and get away as soon as possible?
    correct. Quin and tri were usually the smaller ships or medium rammers.
    Larger ships like the ones with castles on them still only have three banks of oars. But are physically wider and huge and slow un comparison.

    Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games..

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex View Post
    correct. Quin and tri were usually the smaller ships or medium rammers.
    Larger ships like the ones with castles on them still only have three banks of oars. But are physically wider and huge and slow un comparison.
    I agree that these two ships were better for quick ramming maneuvers. However, if larger ships with rams gained enough speed they would do more damage because they are heavier and would transfer a lot more weight. So, the Battle of the Nile footage is not necessarily inaccurate.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mbern45 View Post
    I think the bigger mass of the bigger ships would actually be worse for it. The smaller ship only needs enough force to send a small ram through wooden planks, the heavier mass will stop the larger ship from moving which will make it absorb the full impact. Remember, just because the ship is bigger doesn't make it stronger structure wise. You're still just punching through wooden boards.
    Actually I would be surprised if a larger ship isn't, more often than not, stronger structure wise simply because the shock has more places to go through the ship, and in general it will be taking on greater structural stresses in order to straight up maintain it's inert structural integrity.


    I can't think of a single situation, especially in boats at sea, where a collision is imminent and I'd rather be on the smaller boat, with the exception of a perfectly placed ram at as close to 90 degrees off the port or starboard side. However, if I am about to ram a fixed sized object and have to choose between a smaller boat and a larger boat, I'm going to take my chances with the larger boat.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Let me explain in a little more detail. I have 5 or so books specialising on naval battles of the period.
    Cool. May I ask which ones?


    Larger ships were built for boarding actions. They were usually of a heavier build than smaller ships and much wider to hold more marines. They act like giant forts, grappling and boarding.
    The battle of actium was a victory for smaller ships swarming larger ships to ram them. The idea for a smaller ship is to pass an opposing ship and then turn into it to ram it in the side, the rear quarter being the perfect place. Interestingly ships DID NOT usually sink. Because they were usually of wood and light construction a lot of them could be towed off after battle. The ramming primarily disabled the enemy by stopping it from manoevering. A rammed ship was basically a dead duck in the water. Waiting for the clean up operation after battle.
    The very little bit found on Wikipedia indicates that the idea of "very large ships" just didn't really exist in the period, especially after the Romans established military superiority. So while a trireme isn't a "big ship" perse, it's still bigger than the scout ships and whatnot.

    I know Wikipedia isn't typically the best resource, and in the article they straight up mentioned that the naval battle holds some level of "rock paper scissors" (so their adherence to history is already compromised in terms of gameplay). It certainly comes across as more interesting to me than the naval campaigns in prior games (especially since they can share the same battle map as land units now).

  17. #77

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    At this point it is difficult to say how naval battles will play out exactly since we don't know all the sizes or types of ships. There is some good stuff which is likely to make naval battles more interesting seen but also some worrying stuff.

    Good stuff;

    Ramming, speed differences, multi ship boarding (instead of previous TW where only 1 ship could board at a time), and possibly siege ships.

    Worrying;

    Artillery on ships used against other ships (sure this occasionally happened but almost always was used in sieges or vs beached/slow moving ships)

    Large ships portrayed as always more powerful ramming attack when speed and maneuverability were key in ramming. Mass has very little importance compared to speed and often was more important to ensure the attacking vessel cut through waves more efficiently than anything to do with hitting a target where the ram was more important.

    Small ships almost always meant small crew which means less rowers so biremes were often slower then triremes with crew size meaning faster speeds up to quinquereme where depending on design and crew are when it becomes questionable if the larger amount of rowers can offset the longer and wider ship necessary to carry the extra crew. Experienced crews which couldn't match top speed of larger crews could still often outmaneuver them as rowing and understanding the timing allowed them to make up for lower top speed.

    No exposed rowers and without rowers for missile weapons to attack which cripple speed and maneuverability missile weapons become nearly worthless in historical sense.

    So far no shown variety of ships where even in Mediterranean there was many ship variants used in battles other than different designs of remes.


    Advantages of small ships- can turn quickly, cheap, can venture in shallow waters.

    Advantages of medium ships- highest speed, can turn relatively quickly, useful in most situations with good crew and can chance shallower waters with some risk.

    Advantages of large ships- slow speed and turning radius but can be loaded with missiles which can disable attacking ships rowers/marines and very quickly capture enemy ships in boarding actions. Morale advantage as a large ship is very unlikely to break apart and sink completely. Can be used in naval battles and in sieges to either mount artillery/towers onto or sometimes even break harbor chains. Large grain ships were often chained together and sunk outside a harbor entrance to enforce blockade.
    Last edited by Ichon; July 30, 2013 at 01:05 AM.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by alanschu View Post
    Cool. May I ask which ones?




    The very little bit found on Wikipedia indicates that the idea of "very large ships" just didn't really exist in the period, especially after the Romans established military superiority. So while a trireme isn't a "big ship" perse, it's still bigger than the scout ships and whatnot.

    I know Wikipedia isn't typically the best resource, and in the article they straight up mentioned that the naval battle holds some level of "rock paper scissors" (so their adherence to history is already compromised in terms of gameplay). It certainly comes across as more interesting to me than the naval campaigns in prior games (especially since they can share the same battle map as land units now).
    Large ships most certainly DID exist in ROME2's period. At least up until the civil war that ended with cleopatra and antony committing suicide.
    Antony's fleet had many very large ships. His problem was that he could not man all his small ships to protect them from ramming and really just used his large ships to aid cleopatra's escape.

    These are the books I have on hand:

    new vanguard : ancient greek warship
    warfleets of antiquity by R B Nelson
    conways history of ships the age of the galley
    Ospreys battle of Actium
    age of titans: rise and fall of the great hellenistic navies by william M. Murray (almost forgot this was on my kindle)

    I guess the main problem I had was when the CA guy said smaller ships were obviously going to have much greater problems ramming and causing damage with their rams. When the opposite was the smaller ships role.
    All this while showing a monster with fore and aft castles on it.
    Last edited by Destraex; July 30, 2013 at 04:51 AM.

    Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games..

  19. #79

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    just watched the end of it though and kind of tantalised about the multiplayer surprises....

    Sail your ship as part of a fleet. Devs previously worked on: Darthmod, World of Warplanes, World of Tanks, RaceRoom, IL2-Sturmovik, Metro, STALKER and many other great games..

  20. #80

    Default Re: Angry Joe will be uploading some Rome 2 footage soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vallon View Post
    What a stupid statement.. You know, some people actually study history instead of wanking off to 300 and Spartacus.
    Napoleon Bonaparte - "History is a set of lies agreed upon ." even with todays technology and forensic skills, most of ancient history is just speculation. And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think we much evidence on how naval battles were fought at all.

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