Questions and speculation about the Berserkers.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Before starting off, I'd just like to thank CA for portraying the Berserkers the way they did. They look more authentic and realistic in this current portrayal and that will really add to the immersion a lot.
Now, let me fire off some questions and throw a little speculation in the mix. Only the devs really know, hopefully they can pop by and shed a little light but do feel free yourselves to drop a comment and try to answer some of the questions with what you would like to see.

1) Are the Berserkers a 'Germanic' thing altogether or will they only be limited to the Suebi? How would you like to see it done? Only fear the Berserkers when planning a war against the Suebi or just come across a lot of them throughout your campaign in Germania fighting against all those little tribes?

2) Are they only "shock" units where their effectiveness will rapidly dwindle in prolonged combat, and that they are only to be used for their charge and initial carnage at the very start of the engagement? Think the Berserkers are just going to be "wrecking balls" like Al described where they will be causing hassle throughout the battle or will they be devoured after a little while if you bog them down in combat?

3) Are they just coded to break through any formation because of their purpose, which is to cause chaos and disorganisation? I like holding back the main bulk of my enemies with my Triarii and they are very effective at it, or would the Berserkers just cave my frontline right in causing madness?

Personally, I want to see the Berserkers as something to fear but not something that will take the pee-pee in combat. If I could get the Berserkers to charge me head-on and not go for any flanks when I have my Triarii ready, I should be able to hold them back. Obviously there will be casualties but even the Berserkers should find it very troubling trying to break through an enemy that is in formation and in defensive mode, especially Roman.

Guys, you can put down anything you want, even your own questions about the Berserkers but please keep it only about the Berserkers. Drop down your thoughts as to what you wish the answers to these questions are. If this thread becomes popular and a lot of people show interest in the Berserkers, maybe Jack will help us out a little.

Btw, good job, CA, with the Berserker warcry. Sadly it was a little hard to hear as Al spoke at the same time but it sounded AMAZING! Very immersive. Good job, guys!

[Captain W. Handberg]

Berserkers are men that deem themselves as connected to the Gods, Gods that differ from the Celtic religion. Berserkers are unique to Suebi and Germanic tribes.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Berserkers are men that deem themselves as connected to the Gods, Gods that differ from the Celtic religion. Berserkers are unique to Suebi and Germanic tribes.

Ah, it does makes sense that they'd all have it. Do you personally reckon that is what CA has ended up doing then?

[Captain W. Handberg]

Ah, it does makes sense that they'd all have it. Do you personally reckon that is what CA has ended up doing then?

I'd say so, yes. Berserkers will be one of the few really powerful Germanic troops, while other Barbarian factions, such as Averni and Iceni have powerful units of their own, chariots and Gallic cavalry for example.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

I'd say so, yes. Berserkers will be one of the few really powerful Germanic troops, while other Barbarian factions, such as Averni and Iceni have powerful units of their own, chariots and Gallic cavalry for example.

To me, it does seem like the Berserkers are going to have a massive impact in the inter-Germanic wars that will be going on since Germanic factions have a lot of light units. Definitely going to be a challenge for outsiders trying to fight their way into Germania.

I kind of do and don't want every Germanic faction to have them. Just one of those things. Once we step into Germania, every battle there would have some but that's just me.

[geala]

The whole Berserkr thing is a very clouded one. The term appeared late in literature (first in the 9th c. AD), then disappeared and came in use again much later (12th c. AD)when there was no Berserkr seen for centuries. So nobody really knew in the middle ages what a Berserkr was and therefore we don't know it either. The theories about it are abundant but mainly speculative. So CA can do many things in many ways. They could be naked or clad in animal skins, with or without armor, many forming an elite unit or few forming an uber elite unit. What is a common feature for Berserkrs is that they were reckless and in some kind of murderous frenzy. I think they would be best portrayed as a small unit with a unit cap (only one per army) with very high attack stats and reasonable close quarter defense stats, fighting naked or just with a wolf or bear skin, sword and shield. They should be vulnerable to projectiles.

[Captain W. Handberg]

The latter will probably depend on what the AI has in mind. If they feel for building lots of Temples to the Gods and got enough cash to spam units, we might see 2-3 Berserkers in one army or such. The AI for the Suebi will surely have quite strong armies with some Berserkers here and there. Other Germanic tribes being less populated and less powerful might have, well, less.
I hope Suebi will have some cool heavily armored Noble infantry/Cavalry, wielding axes/swords with those hexagonal shields.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

The latter will probably depend on what the AI has in mind. If they feel for building lots of Temples to the Gods and got enough cash to spam units, we might see 2-3 Berserkers in one army or such. The AI for the Suebi will surely have quite strong armies with some Berserkers here and there. Other Germanic tribes being less populated and less powerful might have, well, less.
I hope Suebi will have some cool heavily armored Noble infantry/Cavalry, wielding axes/swords with those hexagonal shields.

You maybe in luck when you're asking for Axe-wielding heavy units. There are already Axe-wielding units for the Parthians so I'm guessing CA would've just used those models, animation sets and just made Germanic units out of them as well. So yeah, we can basically count them in.

Suebi naturally will have stronger armies because it is a main faction and I believe they have the capital of that province as well. As long as Berserkers are well-balanced, they should not be a battle-breaking problem then. A swift flank, envelopment of a Berserker unit by heavy infantry should deal with them nicely.

@TotalWarker: That is a really good prediction, friend. It makes sense. Especially since there are tweaks to the combat system, introduction of weapon base damage, penetration and armour types etc. Some heavy infantry should be able to do the trick if those Berserkers end up not being protected much by armour, which I actually don't think they wanted to use.

@geala: Yeah. With the lack of knowledge on the Berserkers, CA can actually have the freedom to do what they will with them. There are not many sources on them, so CA are not pressured to follow up on one angle. All CA has to do is make the Berserkers seem bloodthirsty and chaotic, anything else, especially visual, CA can get away with going to town on.

[geala]

The axe seems not to have been a frequently used weapon for Germanic tribes (or politically correct: nations) in our timeframe. Better give swords to them without an "ap" feature (if something like this is still in game, idk). No reason to make such a unit too strong.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

The axe seems not to have been a frequently used weapon for Germanic tribes (or politically correct: nations) in our timeframe. Better give swords to them without an "ap" feature (if something like this is still in game, idk). No reason to make such a unit too strong.

Weren't swords supposedly a rarity for the Germanic dudes?
When it comes to the axe, I really am not sure. They were farmers after all, to be honest, so if someone were to take an axe to a battle it would not be a uncommon sight. However, those axes would not be proper battle axes, just those wood-cutting axes which I don't think are in the game.

[TotalWarker]

Think they're gonna end up light armored but heavy hitting, so probably wont have the staying power but the initial hit will be morale crushing. Best used to break a specific point in a bogged down battle or to hit a flank.

I'm interested to know more about the Iceni units as I'll be playing with them 1st. Hopefully they have some decent infantry too

[Captain W. Handberg]

Axes would honestly make more sense than swords. Swords crave more metal to craft rather than axes. Hence why spears were so popular amongst many nations; with one sword, you could craft twenty spears.

[geala]

Of course you can speculate like you may. If we look at the Hjortspring boat findings, resembling a Germanic warrior group of about 350 BC, we find about 10 warriors with swords and probably mail armour and about 80 to 90 warriors with spears and shields. Only very few axe parts as far as I know. Of course axes were used to a certain extend by the Germans and found in archaeological excavations. It would however be a little ridiculous imho to give axes to Berserkrs, a kind of elite unit.

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

The most popular weapon for germanic warriors were the spear. They also had La-Tene style swords, later more and more one-edged swords. The large use of axes is a viking thing. Clubs were also not that common that CA should make a complete unit of them as they did.

[TheTank]

The most popular weapon for germanic warriors were the spear. They also had La-Tene style swords, later more and more one-edged swords. The large use of axes is a viking thing. Clubs were also not that common that CA should make a complete unit of them as they did.

Yes, Germanic mainly used lances and spears and Single edged swords were found at the Hjortspring site, La Tene swords were adapted later in the Pre Roman iron age period.
I believe the earliest La Tene sword found in A Germanic context dates from the late 3 century BC but this sword type only became widespread in the mid 2 century and 1 century BC.
War knives appeared somewhat earlier. I believe there were already some findings in the Jastorf culture dated from 5 century BC.

War axes (long shaft but small axe head) are really rare in the late Pre Roman iron age and early Roman iron age but became more popular in the later roman Iron age (3-4 century AD).

Regarding Hjortspring, two axe shaft for socketed axes were found but they are probably were only used as a tool.
Its of course posible that those axes were used as a last resort weapon.

The disadvantage of using working axes for combat is that they are more heavier than war axes so the warrior will get tired quickly.
Real war axes used by the Germanics were very lightweight and used a long shaft for better reach.

If you want I can post some example's of war axes in this thread.

[geala]

That would be nice. I'm sure small axes were used perhaps as side weapons for normal warriors. If you are on a war raid, you have to have some wood cutting instruments at least for camp duty, so axes were with you. And it could have been used as a last resort weapon too in defense situations. Findings in the Germanic fortifications at the northern low mountain range in today Lower Saxony, Germany, build in about 400 BC and used till the 1st c. BC, suggest that all weapon-like objects were used for defending, even a plough share. Against presumably Celtic attackers.

[Argon Viper]

The large use of axes is a viking thing.

Which is probably where we get the idea of berserkers using them. Scandinavia was where the berserker tradition lasted the longest throughout history, and I'm pretty sure (sorry, no source on this one) that the viking raiders used them before the conversion to Christianity.

In fact, the legend I had heard about the Norse conversion was that they had the pagans and the Christians each build a fire and then they had a berserker try to walk through them. When he couldn't walk through the Christian one, that was the one they chose.

Anyways, since there's no real documentation prior to 9 AD, I'm pretty cool with CA taking some creative license with this particular unit. It's fun and entirely plausible, so it doesn't ruin the immersion.

[Jester]

i hope they re just elite troops with better stats, but no illogical fantasy stuff like unbreakable morale or sth

[Lockpick]

Hope they can be upgraded in the techtree to stay unil endgame.
-> Imagine a berserker in armor...

[osros]

As Rome I'm not too concerned of the Berserkers in limited numbers, I'm sure they will be a strong unit and will require attention if meet in battle. I am more concerned with berserkers in large numbers so I hope they are a limited available or expensive unit such as any elite faction unit. I welcome the challenge though.