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  1. #1
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default My essay about evil.

    I wrote this essay in a moment of passion. It encapsulates my beliefs. Feel free to comment about it, or rip it apart. By reading it, you've already flattered me.

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    The Origin of Evil

    The following is not exactly an essay……. but instead a personal observation on society, and the world in general. In this rant-like essay I will indulge in discussing the concept of 'Evil'. What is Evil? What makes evil, evil? Where does evil come from?

    I won’t beat around the bush, and I’ll give an answer that satisfies each of those questions: ‘Coercion’. In any form, force is always immoral. No reason justifies the use of force to attain ends (a good mantra to this is “The means justify the ends.”), as it violates the right to liberty. All people have the right to liberty, so as long as they don’t infringe upon the same liberty of another person. Therefore, the use of coercion destroys liberty and if this coercion is legal it means that man is a slave.

    Coercion is a universal concept. The simplest tribal forms, to the most advanced paper-pushing bureaucratic communist regimes, used coercion as their means to achieve ends. This wanton use force has lead to almost every human misery in existence. Left to themselves, with a right to be left alone, humans will generally do the right thing. Think of slavery, war, racism, hatred, and all forms of bigotry. If you look to the society in which those things occur, it would very odd if the groups that are being discriminated against, were not at one time discriminated against by the law of the land (imposed by the government). I’ll provide examples off the top of my head. Slavery in America is one of the first things that people think about of the subject of bigotry. Certainly, in that society, the bigotry flourished due to the use of the government to enslave those people. Or, another example would be the backwards caste system of India. The lower caste was legally discriminated against through laws. Or, the hatred of homosexuals today was also caused by the government. Marriage was legally defined between a man and a woman, and sodomy was illegal. When I think about it, I can’t think of any bigotry that hasn’t stemmed from the government.

    Is that a surprise? No, of course it isn’t. When anarchists advocate self government people seem to believe that they wish to de-evolve the society. Quite the opposite, it would be the most progressive society in history. Throughout the ages, governments have grown and shrunk, but always, people have had to obey laws of altruism (sacrificing ones self or extension of self [property]) to provide for others. Individuality, which is the highest form of self government, has time and time again shown itself to create the most moral people, the most efficient society, and a level of human development much greater to that of a oppressive society. I like to think of comparing countries in the level of oppression to individuality. At the far left end of the spectrum we have Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. In the middle, welfare states like France, and slightly right of centre (we’re getting closer to freedom) we have countries like Canada and America. I believe that as the spectrum keeps moving towards the right end (freedom) the society becomes better. Surely, this is no surprise; as the same means will achieve the same ends.

    What is Evil? Evil is anything that limits individuality and suppresses free will.

    What makes Evil, Evil? The act of enslaving people in the name of freeing other people is a contradiction. We can clearly see that the ends do not justify the means, because this is in the name of the common good. There can be no common good, because the commons is made up of the individual. If the individual is violated, what good could possibly happen to the commons?

    Where does evil come from? Evil comes from coercion. For the most part, coercion comes from government. Why is this? This is so, because government is set up to achieve a common good. I think it would be appropriate to provide an example. The government sets up a minimum wage in the name of the common good. The government claims that by setting up an arbitrary value for a service, it will help achieve a greater level of welfare for the lower class. This price floor hurts the lower class because of two reasons. There is now less capital in businesses meaning that there is less money to pay people meaning that there will be less jobs (as the demand for a product remains consistent, producers will still supply the same products [or alternatively, the businesses might keep the same labor, but instead purchase less products meaning that what they sell will be more expensive and thus the increased pay check will be meaningless as a product inflation happens]) and there is less jobs. Now that there is less jobs, two things happen: unemployment goes up, and the more qualified people get jobs as opposed to the more under trained needy people (in the USA the African-Americans found themselves unemployed because the more educated white people took the scarce source of jobs due to a newly introduced minimum wage).

    When people have the right to be left alone (negative liberty) instead of having the right to water (positive liberty [if one looks closely, one can see that the two forms of rights are in conflict with each other and the latter demands a right to consume and is inherently backwards, immoral, or both]), the highest form of civilization will have been achieved: Liberty.

    Erik

    Music is the pinnacle of civilization and Jazz is the apex.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    And then comes the human and he screw up everything. Unfortunately.
    I sin for the good of humankind
    "I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength."
    -Nietzsche
    Truth is not a law, a democracy, a book or a norm not even a constitution. Nor can it be read in the stars.

  3. #3
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    And then comes the human and he screw up everything. Unfortunately.
    Well my essay is trying to point out that government is mainly responsible.

    Erik

    Music is the pinnacle of civilization and Jazz is the apex.
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  4. #4
    Trey's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikinWest
    Well my essay is trying to point out that government is mainly responsible.

    Erik
    Hmm, interesting, but I don't think so. I do evil every day to other people, but is that because of the government? I don't think so, it is just me and my selfish desires that cause 'evil', however you define that. The reason why governments are is because they are an extension of human nature, and in turn run by humans.
    for-profit death machine.

  5. #5
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikinWest
    Well my essay is trying to point out that government is mainly responsible.

    Erik
    But how, in the end, is a government responsible for an individual man's actions? Man is the permanent; take away governemnt and we see evil (look at pre-historic times, for instance).

  6. #6
    Sammur-amat's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    But how, in the end, is a government responsible for an individual man's actions? Man is the permanent; take away governemnt and we see evil (look at pre-historic times, for instance).
    yes...look at the prehistoric times...now isn't the alpha male system/leader same as govt. today?
    "conception of freedom often amounts to little more than apologetics for the right of the powerful to do as they please often at the expense of the freedoms of the less powerful."

    "man is permanent"...only his desires are permanent..fullfill his desires and no evil you'll see..
    Last edited by Sammur-amat; September 12, 2006 at 04:00 PM.
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  7. #7
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by n00kie
    yes...look at the prehistoric times...now isn't the alpha male system/leader same as govt. today?
    "conception of freedom often amounts to little more than apologetics for the right of the powerful to do as they please often at the expense of the freedoms of the less powerful."
    Well, no, not really; alpha male was most powerful male by virtue of strength and viciousness, now its by virtue of being popular
    Quote Originally Posted by n00kie
    "man is permanent"...only his desires are permanent..fullfill his desires and no evil you'll see..
    But some of his desires are themselves evil or fulfillable only by evil.

  8. #8
    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Evil is inherrent to man so long as he is jealous. Once there is nothing to be jealous of, evil will no more trouble him.

    So what do I mean? Well, firstly, its that evil will apparently never leave us. In my eyes though, there is an answer- sustainable basic resources, such as: Food, Water, Locamotion, Health and Shelter - the majority have these things, but we have yet to be confident in our control of such resources. Lets consider each one:

    Food - There is a surplus of food on the world- I believe the figure is something like we have enough to feed the world 8 times over. That's alot wasted. The reason - noone apart from charities is willing to provide the methods for such food to reach the needy. Water has the same issues.

    Locamotion - My personal bugbear. We have a number of green fuels at our disposal, that would, in theory be unlimited once regulated, better for the environment and the availability not nearly so tied down to access to oil fields. Some of you may be reminded of a somewhat volitile post I made about Oil companies some time back.

    Health - Rich countries healthy, poor ones not. Thats the simplistic and grammatically incorrect way of describing health. Again, resources required to shift health facilities and goods is tied up...elsewhere. Its the charities who are trying to help- far too little anyone else.

    Shelter- Again, rich countries seem to have no end of shelter facilities (i.e. houses :O ), but its tied down to the individual. If you have the money, you get a big house, and if, for what ever reason you dont have money, you dont, or even no-house at all. Is this right? Definatly not.

    So. What am I saying? I'm saying that if everyone has everything they need to live a long healthy life, evil levels will see a nice drop. Thats how I see it.
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  9. #9
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Evil is not abstract. It's simply the absence of Sympathy.

  10. #10

    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Sorry, Erik. Must come along and point out all of the failures of your arugment:

    1. Using force is always wrong: what if it is to stop someone else from using force in a way to harm society at large?
    2. Left alone, people will behave themselves: Not really. To see what a world without a gov't looks like, look at Iraq the first few days after the "liberation". Saddam is removed, and the US have yet to step in to provide order. The result: Looting, raping, and assults all over the place. People will behave themselves 87.5% of the time if there is no one enforcing the rules, and they think that no one else is breaking the rules. Problem is, that 12.5% give the impression that everyone is breaking the rules, and pretty soon, everyone is breaking the rules, and disorderly society is the order of the day.
    3. The idea that all bigorty stems from the gov't. Sorry, kid, you got this one backwards. Anti-semitism have being there long before any gov't decides to use Jews as a all purpose scapegoat in the event anything goes wrong. Have you ever thought why they chose the Jews as the all purpose scapegoat?
    4. Another nail in the coffin for your idea that everyone is basically a good person: the people who are in charge of the gov't are also people, remember?

    Sorry. Your theory is absolute bullocks and is not founded on facts. It requires as a premise for your entire logic to work that all people are nice people. Problem is, there are some really nasty people in the world. Like me, or Stalin, or Hitler. Why do you think that gov't came about, anyway?

  11. #11
    Sammur-amat's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    1. Using force is always wrong
    Correct, period
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    2. Left alone, people will behave themselves: Not really. To see what a world without a gov't looks like, look at Iraq the first few days after the "liberation". Saddam is removed, and the US have yet to step in to provide order. The result: Looting, raping, and assults all over the place. People will behave themselves 87.5% of the time if there is no one enforcing the rules, and they think that no one else is breaking the rules. Problem is, that 12.5% give the impression that everyone is breaking the rules, and pretty soon, everyone is breaking the rules, and disorderly society is the order of the day.
    remove the rules..what breaking you'll see?...liberation?(yeah, right)...the iraqi people are
    few yrs. sodomised by saddame & USA bombings + divided amongst themselves with Shia/Sunni thingy..its natural for them to use momments before another opressor state his rules..
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    3. The idea that all bigorty stems from the gov't. Sorry, kid, you got this one backwards. Anti-semitism have being there long before any gov't decides to use Jews as a all purpose scapegoat in the event anything goes wrong. Have you ever thought why they chose the Jews as the all purpose scapegoat?
    and this apply to SSSR,Argentina,Mexico,Korea's,Indonesia...how?...(jews?..talkin narrows)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    4. Another nail in the coffin for your idea that everyone is basically a good person: the people who are in charge of the gov't are also people, remember?
    remove the govt. you removed the power you removed the problem..everybody same=everybody good..you think that babies are born evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Sorry. Your theory is absolute bullocks
    its just too left for you...
    Last edited by Sammur-amat; September 15, 2006 at 06:17 AM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    remove the rules..what breaking you'll see?...liberation?(yeah, right)...the iraqi people are
    What about the Iraqi musesms that were looted? The massive waves of kidnappings?

    and this apply to SSSR,Argentina,Mexico,Korea's,Indonesia...how?...(jews?..talkin narrows)
    I just named anit-Jew sentiments as a example. Next up, let us try homophobia. Before there were any laws passed to stop gay marriage, there were a whole lot of people who voted for these laws. Hence, it have been there long been homophobia before there were homophobia.

    remove the govt. you removed the power you removed the problem..everybody same=everybody good..you think that babies are born evil?
    Actually, some people have the power with out gov'ts. What do you think that gangs are, anyway?
    Also, if gov't is the source of all evil, then where in the hell does rapists come from? Or are they nice people?

    Correct, period
    Right, so a woman who is being raped should not defend herself, right?

    its just too left for you...
    It is not even self consistent.
    Premises:
    All people are naturally good.
    Gov't are naturally bad.
    Gov'ts are made out of people.
    faulty logic. Try again.


    You theory is only valid if there are no bad people on the planet. Problem is, there are bad people in the world who would take advantage of the rest if they can. Like me. Or Hitler, or Stalin, or Euron chiefs, or mobster bosses, or criminals of any type.
    Last edited by Lee1026; September 15, 2006 at 01:47 PM.

  13. #13
    Sammur-amat's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    Rape is the act of forcing penetrative sexual acts
    look above for my statement about force..

    I never said that govt/leaders of any type is/are necessity..
    try again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    bad people in the world who would take advantage of the rest if they can
    your theory is strictly ladder type ..so with system that ErikinWest sugested "self-govt." is related how?
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  14. #14
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Sorry, Erik. Must come along and point out all of the failures of your arugment:
    Woah! I forgot about this post. Sorry for the belated replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    1. Using force is always wrong: what if it is to stop someone else from using force in a way to harm society at large?
    Let me phrase it as a mathematical equation

    You have a right not to be subject to coercion = You have the responsibility not to use coercion

    If any sides of the equation become unbalanced they cancel each other out. Get it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    2. Left alone, people will behave themselves: Not really. To see what a world without a gov't looks like, look at Iraq the first few days after the "liberation".
    Ah, this is where we have a communication problem. It was true that it was a society without gov’t, but not because of the reasons I advocate. What really happened was one government attacked another and there was a buffer period of replacing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Saddam is removed, and the US have yet to step in to provide order. The result: Looting, raping, and assults all over the place. People will behave themselves 87.5% of the time if there is no one enforcing the rules, and they think that no one else is breaking the rules. Problem is, that 12.5% give the impression that everyone is breaking the rules, and pretty soon, everyone is breaking the rules, and disorderly society is the order of the day.
    Sure, again, I say, this is not what I am advocating. I advocate a society without gov’t that is created through voluntarily means, not with a land invasion as your example describes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    3. The idea that all bigorty stems from the gov't. Sorry, kid, you got this one backwards. Anti-semitism have being there long before any gov't decides to use Jews as a all purpose scapegoat in the event anything goes wrong. Have you ever thought why they chose the Jews as the all purpose scapegoat?
    By government, I could mean the church also. Don't use my term 'government' in the modern context. I mean any system in which groups try to rule people through the use of coercion. So yes I do believe that bigotry stems from the gov't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    4. Another nail in the coffin for your idea that everyone is basically a good person: the people who are in charge of the gov't are also people, remember?
    I say that people are generally good when they are left alone. People who work in gov't use coercion as their mandate. Those people do inherently bad things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Sorry. Your theory is absolute bullocks and is not founded on facts.
    That's the pot calling the kettle black. You haven't even pointed out any facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    It requires as a premise for your entire logic to work that all people are nice people.
    I think most people are good; I didn't say that all people are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Problem is, there are some really nasty people in the world. Like me, or Stalin, or Hitler. Why do you think that gov't came about, anyway?
    Because men will use coercion to better themselves. A system that hasn't worked so far. I don't know why you autocrats have such a hard time realizing what a poor job gov't does at everything. I support a society where people know they are free from tyranny.

    Erik

    Music is the pinnacle of civilization and Jazz is the apex.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    look above for my statement about force..
    Yes, the act of rape is wrong. However, resisting it also involves in violence.

    I never said that govt/leaders of any type is/are necessity..
    try again?
    Well, how about mob leaders?

  16. #16
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Now we have to ask "but who's to say what is and isn't evil" and "why do all people have a right to liberty? The Bible speaks of the right to enslave the occupants of a conquered city (provided they gave up, otherwise we can kill the men)".

    In my opinion, everyone is evil. Jesus, Hitler, you, me, Santa, Satan, Muhammed, Luke Skywalker...it's all a matter of perspective.

  17. #17
    Sammur-amat's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    In my opinion, everyone is evil. Jesus, Hitler, you, me, Santa, Satan, Muhammed, Luke Skywalker...it's all a matter of perspective.
    can you be more "darker"?..Santa? :hmmm:
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard
    Now we have to ask "but who's to say what is and isn't evil" and "why do all people have a right to liberty? The Bible speaks of the right to enslave the occupants of a conquered city (provided they gave up, otherwise we can kill the men)".

    In my opinion, everyone is evil. Jesus, Hitler, you, me, Santa, Satan, Muhammed, Luke Skywalker...it's all a matter of perspective.
    Yes, evil is all relative; that doesn't mean we can dismiss evil actions at all.

  19. #19

    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    So with out a gov't who is going to protect us from the few bad people in the world?

  20. #20
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: My essay about evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    So with out a gov't who is going to protect us from the few bad people in the world?
    Let me first point out that governments already do such a poor job at protecting people that almost any other system would work better. But to answer your question: People would do it themselves. Private defense forces, hired security, whatever people want to create.

    Erik

    Music is the pinnacle of civilization and Jazz is the apex.
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