Constantly in debt

[tono4850]

I am playing SS 6.4 with BGR IV and no matter of what I do (building ports, mines etc) I am still in debt. I must admit I havent read the whole manual and dont understand the noble expenses/income system

Now the game is harder, but I dont like the fact I cant plan much because I dont know how much money I can expect a next turn

For ex. why I have to pay 2000 each turn for corruption ?

[KingFoey]

You allso need Merchants on the gold and silver mines. The further away the goods are the more likely the will bring in more Money etc. Ivory(in Afrika) for the Danes. A other good tips for easy Money is: if you take a town/Castle and you know you cant hold it, sell the Buildings in the town/Castle.

[Efstratios]

Happens to me alot too...you know BGR is a constant challenge for the player.

What I did with my Byzantine Campaigns was to recruit only 2 merchants and my debts were all gone...you want to know how I did it? My first merchant was sent I think to Serbia on a Gold Resource to keep trading (up to 1k after he was experienced and sometimes even more). My second merchant reigned in Constantinople(that was a big challenge). You know Constantinople's Region is really rich and has a lot of silk,so many merchants (Imperials(!),Venetians,Turks,Crusaders(from the states),Polish(!),Hungarians) were constantly battling to gain control of the silk resource. What I did was to gain their assets(just right click on rival merchants) in order to gain big money. The more skilled the rival merchant-the more profit you gain from him. And I had 2k(thousand) extra every turn just to keep me up for my debts. Also my profits were up to 10k each turn,even though I would fell bankrupt very easily because of the BGR's difficulty and Corruption...Your generals are (99%) corrupted and that's why you lose that much money even if you have a profitable summary of money into your treasure screen. One of my generals (of Cyprus) was once caught,but couldn't do anything because it would trigger a scandal(?) or something.

[Kaidonni]

I must admit I havent read the whole manual and dont understand the noble expenses/income system

Then read the manual, it will save you quite a bit of trouble. I haven't played Medieval II for a while now, but I can remember the basics of how to approach your nobles in BGR IV.

Each character in charge of a settlement has his own income. He takes a certain amount each turn from taxes and this is added to his wealth. If the character lacks Recruitment Authorisation, then he must bear the additional costs of recruitment (be careful not to bankrupt anyone this way) - but if he has Recruitment Authorisation, he will claim this money from your faction's income at the end of the turn. Characters must also requisition supplies (which get consumed in the field and topped up in settlements), which costs money, so you must plan any journeys - especially the longer ones with larger armies. If a Crusade or has been called (can't remember if the same applies to Jihads), a special Crusade Tax comes into effect and remains there until your faction leader joins the Crusade. Characters that go into debt may have their debts paid off through the treasury, so don't let them become bankrupt because it'll cost you.

[Efstratios]

Then read the manual, it will save you quite a bit of trouble. I haven't played Medieval II for a while now, but I can remember the basics of how to approach your nobles in BGR IV.

Each character in charge of a settlement has his own income. He takes a certain amount each turn from taxes and this is added to his wealth. If the character lacks Recruitment Authorisation, then he must bear the additional costs of recruitment (be careful not to bankrupt anyone this way) - but if he has Recruitment Authorisation, he will claim this money from your faction's income at the end of the turn. Characters must also requisition supplies (which get consumed in the field and topped up in settlements), which costs money, so you must plan any journeys - especially the longer ones with larger armies. If a Crusade or has been called (can't remember if the same applies to Jihads), a special Crusade Tax comes into effect and remains there until your faction leader joins the Crusade. Characters that go into debt may have their debts paid off through the treasury, so don't let them become bankrupt because it'll cost you.

Basically I read the manual not once,but twice and I found these tips and hints really useful. But it just ruins the game for me...I can't be bankrupt for 6-7 turns in a row just because the heir or the faction leader has low authority from the beggining of the game! I am finding my self being bankrupt not with -1K or -2K but with -11K or more...And thus I cannot : Recruit,Build,Re-train,Re-build(due to religious unrest and damages to my buildings) and also I have to deal with the Seljuks,Hungarians,Cumans,Sicilians,Venetians,Egyptians and even Crusaders...I know that BYG is to make the game a little bit more challenging...but I think it is becoming annoying instead...I know the Empire had it's troubles and civil wars but this is just a game,it ruins the fun for me,but I am not giving up until I beat it. All these debts can't magically disappear and that's why I am looking for hints too in order to fix my economy. Also ports in this game are a bit useless because they don't add that much into my treasury. In Rome,Athens with a port would make me 400-600-800(with various governors) money per turn,but now Athens just makes me 100 money just like the rest of the cities. I know the difference between timeline of the ancient Athens and the Byzantine one,but ports are just a disaster for my economy.

I can't spent 2K building a port that will eventually give me 100 coins in return! I will have to pass 20 turns in order to get these precious coins back,but when I 'll do so,the coins I will get for having spent into the port,will just be pointless...But as always I 'll never give up on BYG and his mod that's why I am still playing and will do so. So in order not to get bankrupt,I 'll be forced not to conquer cities and moving my armies because the burn of the supplies will be worse than the conquest of the actual city.

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

I think you should just switch to BGRII, its more more simple. This means starting a new campaign too.

[Strengelicher]

This thread gave me a good laugh, and I feel inclined to comment...

First things first: The OP is absolutely right in NOT reading the BGR manual. After all, the whole point of BGR is to make the game HARDER. And of course it will be hardest if you DO NOT read the manual, but figure everything out for yourself. I guess Byg would agree with that.

Then I quite enjoyed the weird theories of other folks here. Someone is using his merchant to kill of many many other merchants who are highly skilled. Ah-hah. Since everyone who has tried that kind of stunt knows, the chances of success are mixed to say the least, so it should also be mentioned how much saving/reloading that implies. And that it does not make much sense to make the game harder by activating BGR and then reloading 5 times per turn. And ports do NOT generate money? These ports must be different from those I am building in my campaigns...

[Efstratios]

This thread gave me a good laugh, and I feel inclined to comment...

First things first: The OP is absolutely right in NOT reading the BGR manual. After all, the whole point of BGR is to make the game HARDER. And of course it will be hardest if you DO NOT read the manual, but figure everything out for yourself. I guess Byg would agree with that.

Then I quite enjoyed the weird theories of other folks here. Someone is using his merchant to kill of many many other merchants who are highly skilled. Ah-hah. Since everyone who has tried that kind of stunt knows, the chances of success are mixed to say the least, so it should also be mentioned how much saving/reloading that implies. And that it does not make much sense to make the game harder by activating BGR and then reloading 5 times per turn. And ports do NOT generate money? These ports must be different from those I am building in my campaigns...

I wouldn't say that...that ports don't regenerate money but quite the opposite!

But whenever I click my settlement's info and start building the port...I only see that it's economy raises only from 400(for example) to 513...just for 100 money? I wouldn't use that much money to build a port just to get 100 money per turn in exhange...again that's my theory and I do understand of course the difficulty increase of BGRV...I am not that stupid

[Byg]

...I can't be bankrupt for 6-7 turns in a row just because the heir or the faction leader has low authority from the beggining of the game! I am finding my self being bankrupt not with -1K or -2K but with -11K or more.

There is no association between income and the heir or leader's authority level.

Embiggering the authority level will make no difference to income. If im wrong then it is a mechanic I have never noticed so can't be that significant.

[Efstratios]

Either way,getting bankrupt with your sub-mod is really easy...but much more fun than vanilla's way. I conquered the Balkans,Anatolia,all the Greek Islands and Sicily and taxed them with the highest level that was possible. I was at constant war with the Polish,The Venetians,The Sicilians and The Turks,but I always found a way to win and send a diplomat to seek peace. Even with my faction "embiggered" (), I was nearly bankrupt during the whole game. The only thing that saved me was the Noble's thing that gave me 3000 florins once a turn and the peace treaties that I signed with my enemies (regular tribute : 2000 gold per turn ). Still I managed to build things,recruit soldiers and stuff,but I was near the end of game and still had only expanded in a small area,and wasn't quite happy about that,beacuse if I had a stronger economy I could win (short conditions). I emerged victorious in that campaign,and I promised my self never to play vanilla again due to it's crappy economy.

But that was way back before your mod came. It makes the game even more realistic and I don't find it annoying being bankrupt. Instead I really enjoy it,because I know that somehow I can fix my economy,I might even get lucky and the nobles might pay my debts,I may or may not get a mission,to capture a city for money and so goes on. Your mod has "fixed" the economic problems of this game. It has stabilized them even if most of us might not understand it (because some of us are still noobs ).

I understand better this game,and with the economy that you have "made" up,it stabilizes everything,making this game better...and I thank you for that.

Now I find myself on turn 30 having only 15 florins in my treasury,and waiting to get bankrupt the next turn. But I know that when I conquer all the provinces I need,get alliances and position my army on the borders and stop recruiting soldiers (only 5 companies so far), my economy from bright red will change to yellow. From -10k I'll go to 10k,and I am happy with that,because I won't have to buy supplies each turn for my generals. Thanks again for helpful tips lads...keep it up

[poisoned goat]

The port costs 1000 florins to build. In 10 turns, it pays itself back. What did you expect? For the port to bring in tens of thousands of florins per turn? If you're so reluctant to spend a little bit of money to invest in your infrastructure, then you deserve to be in debt. Too bad you're too busy abusing save/reload...

[Byg]

The trouble I found with bgrIV was that I was swamped with money, that's why I had to do a V.

So to get more money in bgrIV is just question of practice and experience. Don't play sloppily, try to optimise every move you make. When you are used to playing at a high level it will become your default skill and the game will become easier.

[Larsel]

The trouble I found with bgrIV was that I was swamped with money, that's why I had to do a V.

So to get more money in bgrIV is just question of practice and experience. Don't play sloppily, try to optimise every move you make. When you are used to playing at a high level it will become your default skill and the game will become easier.

Hehe same with me byg. I usually pretty decent bank after 20 or so turns, even with low income factions.
The best thing in my experience if you have trouble in the beginning of a campaign, it is very good to sell ur buildings in a small settlement that lies on ur border and then trade it off to another faction and in return get both money+ alliance. With the alliance you also get a buffer on ur borders because you now have friendlies on the other side.
Also make sure to constantly produce merchants and send them off to trade valuable stuff such as gold or silk (depending on your faction). It is also much easier to keep eye on the added costs by just getting the overview on how much they add up to.

Byg: Is it much harder to gain wealth with V?

[Efstratios]

Hehe same with me byg. I usually pretty decent bank after 20 or so turns, even with low income factions.
The best thing in my experience if you have trouble in the beginning of a campaign, it is very good to sell ur buildings in a small settlement that lies on ur border and then trade it off to another faction and in return get both money+ alliance. With the alliance you also get a buffer on ur borders because you now have friendlies on the other side.
Also make sure to constantly produce merchants and send them off to trade valuable stuff such as gold or silk (depending on your faction). It is also much easier to keep eye on the added costs by just getting the overview on how much they add up to.

Byg: Is it much harder to gain wealth with V?

Hmmm...I recently read a Byzantine Campaign thread that gives useful tips and hints,and some even say that I should sell Trebizond to the Turks with exhange for money and alliance,but also destroy it's buildings for extra money...because they can take it very easily.

Honestly,I wouldn't do that because I can just move my 2 units of scholarii in 1-2 turns,and crash the turkish forces before they are able to siege Trebizond. Also in order to gain Trapezus(Trebizond in english) they will have to conquer a territory near Georgia(unfortunately I don't remember the name of it) which has a lot of Orthodox Christians in it (nearly a stack) which will rebel again due to religious unrest. SO giving away cities near your borders wouldn't be a good idea. Also taking Sinope in the first 2-3 turns is a good idea,(because most of the Black Sea nearly 60-70% belongs to the Empire) and can be used for trading and only. So having Sinope in the first turns and Trebizond(withough conquering Georgia) will secure your trading in Anatolia and Black Sea. BUT there is another reason that you shouldn't give away positions to get out of your debt : Because upgrading a city even being a "crappy" one with no buildings,it can be transformed into one of the major trade ports that will boost up the trade of your faction...The only question I have for BYG is one for the trade agreements...I have seen that in Empire Total War,having for example 5 trade agreements can boost up your economy by 3-4-5K...so how much exactly does the trade boosts up my economy? Is it useful or it is just a "waste" of time and is used only for mutual benefits and relation boosting? Thanks in advance!

[Larsel]

Hmmm...I recently read a Byzantine Campaign thread that gives useful tips and hints,and some even say that I should sell Trebizond to the Turks with exhange for money and alliance,but also destroy it's buildings for extra money...because they can take it very easily.

Honestly,I wouldn't do that because I can just move my 2 units of scholarii in 1-2 turns,and crash the turkish forces before they are able to siege Trebizond. Also in order to gain Trapezus(Trebizond in english) they will have to conquer a territory near Georgia(unfortunately I don't remember the name of it) which has a lot of Orthodox Christians in it (nearly a stack) which will rebel again due to religious unrest. SO giving away cities near your borders wouldn't be a good idea. Also taking Sinope in the first 2-3 turns is a good idea,(because most of the Black Sea nearly 60-70% belongs to the Empire) and can be used for trading and only. So having Sinope in the first turns and Trebizond(withough conquering Georgia) will secure your trading in Anatolia and Black Sea. BUT there is another reason that you shouldn't give away positions to get out of your debt : Because upgrading a city even being a "crappy" one with no buildings,it can be transformed into one of the major trade ports that will boost up the trade of your faction...The only question I have for BYG is one for the trade agreements...I have seen that in Empire Total War,having for example 5 trade agreements can boost up your economy by 3-4-5K...so how much exactly does the trade boosts up my economy? Is it useful or it is just a "waste" of time and is used only for mutual benefits and relation boosting? Thanks in advance!

Dude i usually play ERE late era on bygs VH/VH with the most aggressive AI. Trust me, if you do not sell off some of ur fortresses for money + alliances they will just get taken from you.
The turks are not much of a problem but the hungarians on the other hand is. Also alot of the border cities you start with as ERE will not give you a very good income in the first 100 turns or so, because they are simply too small. It is MUCH better to get alliances+ money to pay your exspenses which will make you able to take much more efficient settlements: the greek rebels. If you conquer greek+ constantinople you are much better off

[Efstratios]

The port costs 1000 florins to build. In 10 turns, it pays itself back. What did you expect? For the port to bring in tens of thousands of florins per turn? If you're so reluctant to spend a little bit of money to invest in your infrastructure, then you deserve to be in debt. Too bad you're too busy abusing save/reload...

Abusing save-reload? How dare you? I only do that when I have a major defeat and I try to re-think my strategy and tactics!

The only thing that "annoys" me is that I have to be in debts most time and I am not used in that. BYGV is a great mod and it's not my intention to abuse the save-reload feature. I just try to become a better player and that's why sometimes I ask for your help. I would take this as an insult for my playing skills...

[Strengelicher]

Abusing save-reload? How dare you? I only do that when I have a major defeat and I try to re-think my strategy and tactics!

The only thing that "annoys" me is that I have to be in debts most time and I am not used in that. BYGV is a great mod and it's not my intention to abuse the save-reload feature. I just try to become a better player and that's why sometimes I ask for your help. I would take this as an insult for my playing skills...

Haha, don't be insulted, everybody should play the game the way they like it. And if you keep practicing and asking other folks questions on these forums, you are on the road to become a master player...

[Efstratios]

Haha, don't be insulted, everybody should play the game the way they like it. And if you keep practicing and asking other folks questions on these forums, you are on the road to become a master player...

That's why I am sharing my opinion with other players such as you about my economics in my campaign in order to be aided,because I am just a poor player but not new onto the series of total war. That's why I am posting this replies about my problems,I need help with my economy and I am asking as such duh!

I know sometimes I can be annoying because of the difficulty and challenge that this mod offers but on the other side I am getting used to it and I like it! I do not intend to offend Byg,Meneth and everyone else that has put much effort in this game,but instead,I thank them for making me a better player and see the Total War series from a masochistic view(which I really like rather than having a dumb AI that keeps moving it's armies back and forth!).As far as I know building 2 ports and 5 farm clearances are the only options I can do for my Empire(which is still crumbling) but through conquests(which I don't really like because expansion=more responsibillities=more enemies and such) I can revive it somehow and with it supply myself with soldiers.

Keep it up boys :

[Hidden Sage]

As far as I know building 2 ports and 5 farm clearances are the only options I can do for my Empire(which is still crumbling) but through conquests(which I don't really like because expansion=more responsibillities=more enemies and such) I can revive it somehow and with it supply myself with soldiers.

Keep it up boys :

Just recently read into this thread, and noticed you'd pointed out the cost of corruption earlier. Unless Byg changed something serious with BGRIV and V (I like HURB too much to go and try it and find out), that can be fixed by just building all the city watch and town hall buildings. Any structure that says it adds to the law value in a settlement will increase public order (letting you keep tax rates higher for more income), as well as reduce corruption (so less of your money gets pocketed elsewhere). Plus, most of the time generals will gain traits that increase law by sitting in a settlement that has a high-level council chamber for a while (in my experience), adding even more to both.

You might already be doing that. I don't know, since you didn't say. But maxing the law stat is always a first for me, and reducing corruption= increasing revenue in a big way when it's an empire-wide policy. If you're having corruption problems, I'd definitely say go and see what options you have to do that.

Edit for disclaimer: obviously, if you already did all the law-buffing construction and massive corruption is still an issue, I don't have any better advice. HURB has so many buildings that can buff law through the game that I've not seen such a thing since I quit DLV for SS. BRG may be different, though.

[tono4850]

playing with toggle_fow is kind of cheating

its much easier when you see what AI is doing