problem with phalanxes ?

[hrissker]

hello, ive missed the issue with the phalanxes, and I've seen multiple refrences to their flaws yet I do not know what those flaws are ! Can someone please tell me what the mechanical issue is, and also show me footage of this issue at work ? If so I would be humbly appreciative !

[GatorMarine1833]

I think this is based on the recent Battle of the Nile video from the Roman perspective. The phalanx in that video broke and ran extremely quickly even though they were fighting head-on. Also, they seemed to just shuffle about instead of actually fighting the Romans around them.

Oh, and they appeared to be in a very small, thin formation. Phalangite Phalanxes should be deep and formidable, not thin and incompetent.

[Revan The Great]

Yeah, I think this is where the impression comes from. On the other hand, they seem to be playing on rather small settings, and the Egyptian pikemen could just be the lowest tier, lowest quality of pikemen, supported by equally low quality sword infantry. Against veteran Roman legionaries, I guess you'd pretty much expect them to rout on contact, and get overwhelmed.

I'm still highly skeptical though. Everything I've seen of the Egyptians looks like R:TW-style, Ramses-era Egyptians, despite supposedly representing Hellenic Egypt. Hopefully there are Macedonian-blooded, Macedonian-equipped, Macedonian-quality options for Egyptian players too, with the potential to withstand Roman legions.

[Templar Spartan]

The egyptian units in the nile were militia, while the romans had their best units. Also the stats were modified, and everything is still being tweaked and balanced. I'd wait until we get the final game to see if there's a problem.

Revan, I haven't seen any Ramses era egyptians. Would you mind elaborating?

[Mollykins]

The egyptian units in the nile were militia, while the romans had their best units. Also the stats were modified, and everything is still being tweaked and balanced. I'd wait until we get the final game to see if there's a problem.

Revan, I haven't seen any Ramses era egyptians. Would you mind elaborating?

this

companies never do these sorts of demonstrations of their games, without being as sure as they can be that things go exactly as planned.

[Revan The Great]

Well, from what I've been able to see, all of the Egyptian units so far look like this: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...yptian_Faction (scroll down to see the Egyptian Phalanx picture)...which is fine for a minority - the Machimoi levies, but these should be a minority of troops. In the Battle of the Nile, all of the soldiers that I could see were dark skinned, wearing 'Egyptian hats', etc.

I could be mistaken of course, and I hope I am.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg42DC4EpMY For example, look at the skirmishers at 1:30, the 'Egyptian Infantry' at 8:24, and 9:46, 11:48 the 'Camel Archers' near the start of the video, the 'Camel Spearmen' at 9:25, 'Egyptian Archers' at 11:02, the crews of the ships appear Native Egyptian at 12:19-ish

At 12:10 we get a shot of the 'Ptolemaic Cavalry', which is the General's bodyguard for this battle. We don't get very close...it -might- be Companion cavalry inspired, but I just can't tell. The point is, every single unit in this battle looks 'Native Egyptian' to the extreme, with the faintly possible exception of the general's guards. I've looked very hard to see evidence of Ptolemy and not Ramses...haven't found it yet. Don't think it's there.

Edit2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdgfXCpWbWE So here's a video from the Egyptian side (battle begins at about 3:00) and at 3:26 we see 'Pikemen'. These clearly aren't supposed to be Native Egyptians...they look Greek, I'll admit. But I'm still disappointed, they look like 'Armored Hoplites' from R:TW, not Pezhetairoi.

[Templar Spartan]

Well, from what I've been able to see, all of the Egyptian units so far look like this: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...yptian_Faction (scroll down to see the Egyptian Phalanx picture)...which is fine for a minority - the Machimoi levies, but these should be a minority of troops. In the Battle of the Nile, all of the soldiers that I could see were dark skinned, wearing 'Egyptian hats', etc.

I could be mistaken of course, and I hope I am.

Well, I wouldn't call them Ramses-era just because they're egyptian Their unit description labeled them as humble peasants, as you can see here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...le-of-the-Nile

You can also see the stat disparity between the roman and egyptian units. Also notice there is a distinction made between Ptolemaic and Egyptian. Have no fear, I'm confident that CA will do a good job.

[nomercysniper]

Well, from what I've been able to see, all of the Egyptian units so far look like this: http://wiki.totalwar.com/w/Total_War...yptian_Faction (scroll down to see the Egyptian Phalanx picture)...which is fine for a minority - the Machimoi levies, but these should be a minority of troops. In the Battle of the Nile, all of the soldiers that I could see were dark skinned, wearing 'Egyptian hats', etc.

I could be mistaken of course, and I hope I am.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg42DC4EpMY For example, look at the skirmishers at 1:30, the 'Egyptian Infantry' at 8:24, and 9:46, 11:48 the 'Camel Archers' near the start of the video, the 'Camel Spearmen' at 9:25, 'Egyptian Archers' at 11:02, the crews of the ships appear Native Egyptian at 12:19-ish

At 12:10 we get a shot of the 'Ptolemaic Cavalry', which is the General's bodyguard for this battle. We don't get very close...it -might- be Companion cavalry inspired, but I just can't tell. The point is, every single unit in this battle looks 'Native Egyptian' to the extreme, with the faintly possible exception of the general's guards. I've looked very hard to see evidence of Ptolemy and not Ramses...haven't found it yet. Don't think it's there.

It may be because the Egyptian toops are all from a lower tier (Basic sword,phalanx,archer), and the higher tier units are the more greek styled units. This seems to make sense in regards to the generals bodyguard you mention.

[panzerschreck]

for me, the problem with phalanxes is that they don't seem to use their sarissas in the fight, an other problem of animation...

[Geuvesa]

In the videos I have seen the Phalanxes broke quite easily for two reasons: A. being surrounded by routing allies, and B. being charged from the rear by cavalry/elephants.
Not only this, but the difference in stats between the peasant Phalanxes and the Evocarti Cohorts is massive.
As for the shuffle part, I never actually saw video of them in a pitched battle up close, only quick shots of them reforming/routing or the computer trying to shift them right before a melee and getting attacked before they reform.

I don't think we should judge the Phalanx mechanics until we see them up close and a steady shot of them fighting, we all know how quickly the forums run rampant with pessimism without examining the facts.

[DarthShizNit]

If the phalanxes don't work, the honestly there goes half my reason for buying the game.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Do you guys reckon there are some seriously detailed animations where you can see individual attackers trying to get through the pikes?
Or just 'poke and drop' but a little better looking?

[O'Hea]

Have you guys seen the thread with all the unit cards for the various Roman and Egyptian units? The Egyptian troops in the video are both basic, and obscenely underpowered, probably for the purposes of the demonstration. They'll be much stronger and much Greeker when the game goes gold, trust me.

[Rhaegar1]

Good phalanx can make or break this game I think. Not only the animations or the their effect but also how wel the AI can manage them. I really hope we will see a non-scripted custom battle soon with an AI macedon or something like that vs something els (Romans or gauls for my part). Then we will see if the AI is capable of maintaining a good battle line, flanking manouvres and some decent skirmishing.

I think the battle of the nile really was no way a good representation of the way campaign battles will play out.

[Beregond]

The reason for these concerns is that 1,5 months before the release we haven't seen a single fighting phalanx. Only little clips of them just standing in formation, here and there. And the formation is a hideously loose one.
This makes you wonder why weren't we shown the most impressive fighting force in the Ancient world? May be because it has some massive flaws CA is unwilling to show because it'd hurt the sales? With the Warscape engine, this is entirely plausible I fear..

[geala]

Firstly there is nothing wrong with the appearance of the Egyptian Phalanx, except for the extremely stupid decision to give them Roman military sandals. Maybe that's for the sake of "variety" of looks, an interesting reinterpretation of this term by CA. Anyway, from shortly before the battly of Raphia Ptolemaic Egypt used more and more native troops, who may have looked like we see it on the TW page in lower tiers. I'm sure we will also see Klerouchoi "Macedonian" Ptolemaic phalanxes (albeit just a small part of the Klerouchoi were actually descendants of Macedons, they were more Greeks from all over the world and some Jewish and other ethnicities). A sarisai phalanx should be near to invincible from the front in plain area, but vulnerable on the move (except when attacking), in broken terrain (f.e. slopes) and against side and rear attacks. Expert phalanxes should deal better with this. Let's wait and see.

[Ghost_loy]

The reason for these concerns is that 1,5 months before the release we haven't seen a single fighting phalanx. Only little clips of them just standing in formation, here and there. And the formation is a hideously loose one.
This makes you wonder why weren't we shown the most impressive fighting force in the Ancient world? May be because it has some massive flaws CA is unwilling to show because it'd hurt the sales? With the Warscape engine, this is entirely plausible I fear..

We have a let's play coming eventually, let's just hold out and hope we can see some greek fights then.

[Captain W. Handberg]

Your profile picture scares the stercore out of me, Beregond.

[I2ain_2_Battle]

this late in the game process, only a few more days for changes, then shippment. it would be nice for jack lusted to talk about the phalanx a little bit and help ease some concerns

[Chirurgeon]

I am sure they test all this internally. They are not going to ship a game where the phalanx formation is broken. They probably have people doing a ton of internal beta testing