Unknown army compositions. Would make it too difficult?

[DogSoldierSPQR]

One thing I've always been wondering is why we have always been able to see an army's composition. Don't get me wrong, I ain't complaining. Knowing what the enemy is packing is half the knowledge you need in order to win that battle. I was just thinking about this and was wondering how much more difficult it could make the battle if we did not have the ability to know what the enemy army had in it's ranks. Same applies to the enemies.

Obviously we can utilise spies to peep in on them but this should only show us a few units, maybe more depending on how skilled the agent is. I would only ever like to see this feature if the AI itself was hampered in this way too. I don't know, I just think that this feature would be very interesting. Obviously, to not take those who want the regular Total War experience away from this, the option to keep it the same should be there just incase people like seeing enemy armies before battle.

"Knowing is half the battle", I believe someone said. It wouldn't be if this was in the game

What I still want to see is the unit count. We should still know what numbers are coming at us when we click on the enemy army and we should not see any unit cards even if there are quesion marks on them, so it really does not give us an idea as to what to expect.

Personally, this feature being implemented would not bother me too much as I always fight in one style when it comes to the Romans and always have used the same army composition and formation for every battle and every army. I can counter effectively every type of army. Still, I think it would be great to literally be guessing like mad as to what the enemy army could be composed of. I want to be surprised to see some berserkers come flying into my right flank when I really did not make preparations to counter them.

What do you guys think about this feature? This thread really isn't a request thread as I do not see it being implemented in TW but would like to know how many have thought of this and just what those thoughts are.

[Smiling Hetairoi]

Armies received information about the opposing army from spies, turncoats and deserters.

[CTD_or_Bust]

I'd meet you half way. I'd like to see spies become much more significant in seeing what unit types an army has. Here are some ideas after reflecting on your OP.

Without a spy/In Allied Territory
-Can see roughly half the units types and roughly a quarter of their strengths in numbers

With a spy/In Allied Territory
-Can see roughly three quarters of unit types and roughly half of their strengths

Without a spy/In Enemy Territory
-Can see roughly a quarter of unit types and none of their numerical strengths

With a spy/In Enemy Territory
-Can see roughly half of the unit types and roughly a quarter of their strengths in numbers


Maybe further tweaks could be made with ancillaries, general traits (if such exist), time spent stationary (an army on the move gathers less intelligence than an army sitting still), whether you're in ambush stance or not, et cetera.

What makes this different from how Total War currently handles it? When you attack an army it isn't suddenly revealed in full detail. In every TW game some formula not so distant from the one I've just laid out already exists. But once you attack the army all you could ever ask for is displayed, along with the ability to retreat. I'd like to see that removed and the fog of war continue right until the battle begins.

[Bothocevil]

I'd meet you half way. I'd like to see spies become much more significant in seeing what unit types an army has. Here are some ideas after reflecting on your OP.

Without a spy/In Allied Territory
-Can see roughly half the units types and roughly a quarter of their strengths in numbers

With a spy/In Allied Territory
-Can see roughly three quarters of unit types and roughly half of their strengths

Without a spy/In Enemy Territory
-Can see roughly a quarter of unit types and none of their numerical strengths

With a spy/In Enemy Territory
-Can see roughly half of the unit types and roughly a quarter of their strengths in numbers


Maybe further tweaks could be made with ancillaries, general traits (if such exist), time spent stationary (an army on the move gathers less intelligence than an army sitting still), whether you're in ambush stance or not, et cetera.

What makes this different from how Total War currently handles it? When you attack an army it isn't suddenly revealed in full detail. In every TW game some formula not so distant from the one I've just laid out already exists. But once you attack the army all you could ever ask for is displayed, along with the ability to retreat. I'd like to see that removed and the fog of war continue right until the battle begins.

I think it's a good idea , this using of spies add a new insteresting feature for them. Historically, the informations on the ennemy troops was give by scout (often light cavalry), but the using of spies in the game to simulate that would be a good thinks.

[MrOuija]

Good idea OP, and using spies to figure out army composition would give them an additional use. I like it.

[Centurio (Latin)]

I agree, in a way it would be more interesting and definitely more realistic to not be able to see all your enemy's units. I would like this feature a lot

[Revan The Great]

Eh.

Historically speaking, this is what most nations (Rome in particular) used their cavalry for. Send a couple of trusted, competent officers with a dozen cavalry troopers up over the ridge, and once they come back you'll know most of what you're dealing with. Even more information naturally comes in from deserters, captives (like ambushing and capturing the enemy cavalry patrol doing the same thing your guys are doing), civilians fleeing the path of the enemy, etc.

So I think having enemy army knowledge be more nebulous would overly complicate the game, though it would make it harder. Speaking from experience in Shogun 2, the decision to attack an army full of Yari Ashigaru vs. an army full of Katana Samurai is an important one.

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Eh.

Historically speaking, this is what most nations (Rome in particular) used their cavalry for. Send a couple of trusted, competent officers with a dozen cavalry troopers up over the ridge, and once they come back you'll know most of what you're dealing with. Even more information naturally comes in from deserters, captives (like ambushing and capturing the enemy cavalry patrol doing the same thing your guys are doing), civilians fleeing the path of the enemy, etc.

So I think having enemy army knowledge be more nebulous would overly complicate the game, though it would make it harder. Speaking from experience in Shogun 2, the decision to attack an army full of Yari Ashigaru vs. an army full of Katana Samurai is an important one.

Indeed. There can be many arguments for and against a feature like this. I personally would love this feature more like an option rather than the new direction for Total War.
Definitely. Knowing what you were attacking in Shogun 2 was very important, indeed, as things could get seriously messy. Yes, there were many ways in which an army could get information on the opposing army via civillians, captured scouts or general conversations with locals who have mingled with them.

As MrOuija said above, it would allow for spies to not only have more uses, but they would be seriously relied upon. Instead of recruiting them for one purpose, you would now have them around and making sure they are with you at all times incase of an enemy army. I have a lot of understanding of the Total War series and I know that a feature like this could be intimidating to a lot of people who do not want that complication. To me, this is more of an added option rather than a permanent gameplay feature.

You raise good points, friend. I mainly wanted this in there because it is a little realistic (not my main purpose) but mainly for the extra challenge it would bring. However, this feature would not work if the AI could see through this. I would love to see a massive AI army composed of light troops mistakenly attack my army consisting of heavy infantry. Just beautiful scenarious like that would be possible if this feature were in. But yeah, plenty of arguments for an against and I can perfectly understand both ends

@Centurio: With something like this you'd be having a lot more "What the hell did I just get myself into?" moments haha
Would make going to battle a gamble, and that amazing feeling you'd get from achieving victory much more amazing.

@CTD: Those are some good ideas, friend. Yeah, especially when you get attacked you can see everything about their army. I believe you can even see every single trait of the enemy General too. It would be really good and challenging to just try and guess what he has got. I have to say that one of the reasons I want this the most is because not knowing what the enemy really has will keep me on my toes a lot more, meaning I will be a lot more perceptive and more faster-reacting to whatever runs into my LOS during battle.

Berserkers? I want the hair on the back of my neck to stick up when I realise that I can't do much and that this unit will cause some carnage, all because I never anticipated them. It would even make us more paranoid and expecting units that maybe aren't even in the battle.

[Revan The Great]

Now that you mention it, making this an option would probably be a good idea. Everyone wins.

The only thing is, I'd much rather have the 'detection' radius of armies be drastically reduced. If I get close enough I should be able to see what units they're packing, afterall...Spies should never be -required-, just very useful.

[Templar Spartan]

Well, the use of scouts and deserters, etc. is abstracted in the game. However I'd like the effective "composition sight" radius to decrease. Also maybe instead of showing the exact number in a unit, it could give a range to simulate estimating by eyesight? So instead of saying "Thureos Spears (142)" it could say "Thureos Spears (100-160)" with the range being affected by the distance to your closest unit and maybe some traits?

[[N2]Kami]

Well, it will be like in multiplayer battle when we know nothing about the enemy and have to make an army on our own.

And almost every battle i bring the same army compositions with same unit type, favor a balance armies with heavy sword + cavalry, little range, spearman at flank and the rest is meatshield and with only little change in each battle. So either way is fine, all I need is just roughly number of the enemy.
Either way, it is a good idea. People with specific style will be appreciated.