Slingers seems too deadly.

[Legion_IX]

I think basically it should come to this: How well did they do in terms of history? I don't find them too bad myself, however I'm only playing hard on campaign, so I'm not seeing 50 stacks of them either.

If I remember correctly balearean slingers in the Hannibal's army were mentioned as to be very skilled and deadly ranged units.

[Sar1n]

If I remember correctly balearean slingers in the Hannibal's army were mentioned as to be very skilled and deadly ranged units.

Yep, Balearic natives were known as one of most skilled slingers of antiquity.

I'd go with this:
Rhodian slingers-armored, lead bullets-highest range, good damage.
Balearic slingers-unarmored, small stones-high accuracy and ammo, average range and damage.
Persian slingers-unarmored, large stones-extreme damage, low range and ammo.
Hellenistic and Roman slingers-unarmored, lead bullets-same range and damage as Rhodians but less accuracy.
Celtic slingers-unarmored, baked clay bullets-high accuracy and range, low damage. If possible, heated shot ability (yes it existed), working as fire arrows, able to ignite siege equipment.

[Macrath]

I think basically it should come to this: How well did they do in terms of history? I don't find them too bad myself, however I'm only playing hard on campaign, so I'm not seeing 50 stacks of them either.

The description i gave is accurate as to how slingers performed in history. The weapon is deadly, and always has been. Set that aside now it comes down to training and different types of equipment/Ammo each factions may have had.

Sar1n gave a great description, and i would love to see the slingers in game be just as he describes

[Sar1n]

Probably best idea about sling's potency is given by Xenophon in his Anabasis. He gives a good description of both Rhodian slingers' abilities and Persian slingers, as well as comparison of Cretan and Persian archers.

It's interesting to note that only the best composite bows could outrange even famous Rhodian slingers using lead bullets, but Cretan archers couldn't match Persians in range. As for damage, Xenophon curiously mentions Carduchians (Kurdish tribe) using powerful longbows that could pierce both hoplon and cuirass, with arrows long enough to be used as javelins, while slings could deliver fatal injury through armor as well. Persian slingers were using heavy stones, giving them great power but short range.

So, based on this, range:
Best composite bows>sling+lead bullet>average composite bow>persian sling
damage:
Kurdish longbows>persian sling>rhodian sling>composite bow (it is noted that persian arrows and cretan bows were compatible, but cretan archers had short range, although it is unclear whether it's due to cretans' perference for direct fire).

Edit: if you're really interested, Anabasis is available legally for free in English here: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/x/xenophon/x5an/

[Rhaymo]

Probably best idea about sling's potency is given by Xenophon in his Anabasis. He gives a good description of both Rhodian slingers' abilities and Persian slingers, as well as comparison of Cretan and Persian archers.

It's interesting to note that only the best composite bows could outrange even famous Rhodian slingers using lead bullets, but Cretan archers couldn't match Persians in range. As for damage, Xenophon curiously mentions Carduchians (Kurdish tribe) using powerful longbows that could pierce both hoplon and cuirass, with arrows long enough to be used as javelins, while slings could deliver fatal injury through armor as well. Persian slingers were using heavy stones, giving them great power but short range.

So, based on this, range:
Best composite bows>sling+lead bullet>average composite bow>persian sling
damage:
Kurdish longbows>persian sling>rhodian sling>composite bow (it is noted that persian arrows and cretan bows were compatible, but cretan archers had short range, although it is unclear whether it's due to cretans' perference for direct fire).

Edit: if you're really interested, Anabasis is available legally for free in English here: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/x/xenophon/x5an/

according to Duncan Head in Armies of Macedonian and Punic Wars:
Xenophon noted that Persian archers outranged the Cretans, but that later the Cretans practised long-range shooting at a high trajectory with captrued Persian arrows. This suggest that the longer Persian range was the result of lighter arrows and different training, rather than any difference between the bows.

Yep, Balearic natives were known as one of most skilled slingers of antiquity.

I'd go with this:
Rhodian slingers-armored, lead bullets-highest range, good damage.
Balearic slingers-unarmored, small stones-high accuracy and ammo, average range and damage.
Persian slingers-unarmored, large stones-extreme damage, low range and ammo.
Hellenistic and Roman slingers-unarmored, lead bullets-same range and damage as Rhodians but less accuracy.
Celtic slingers-unarmored, baked clay bullets-high accuracy and range, low damage. If possible, heated shot ability (yes it existed), working as fire arrows, able to ignite siege equipment.

i think that i'll use this system.

[Sar1n]

To bump this...it isn't just slingers. These are results of what happens if you use your ranged units to the max with phalanx used to pin enemy down. Both these battles were done against typical post-Augustus legion (general, 9x cohort, 1x first cohort, 1x praetorian cav, 3x various supporting cav, 2x archer aux, 1x scorpions, rest auxilla) on largest unit size.

Although pikemen are best "barrier" troops for this as they don't get pushed around much and keep at standoff distance that reduces FF, it still shows deadliness of the ranged weapons in this mod.

[kahnage]

To bump this...it isn't just slingers. These are results of what happens if you use your ranged units to the max with phalanx used to pin enemy down. Both these battles were done against typical post-Augustus legion (general, 9x cohort, 1x first cohort, 1x praetorian cav, 3x various supporting cav, 2x archer aux, 1x scorpions, rest auxilla) on largest unit size.

Although pikemen are best "barrier" troops for this as they don't get pushed around much and keep at standoff distance that reduces FF, it still shows deadliness of the ranged weapons in this mod.

Those casualty numbers seem accurate if you were hitting from the rear or sides.

I dont think that the ranged units in the mods are overpowered. I think they are just right.

In this era, ranged units (both slingers and archers) should be feared.

And as a testament to the power of slings, read about the Roman-Parthian wars, where Rhodian Slinger Auxilia managed to counter, halt and decimate a charge by massed cataphracts.

[Haikka]

And as a testament to the power of slings, read about the Roman-Parthian wars, where Rhodian Slinger Auxilia managed to counter, halt and decimate a charge by massed cataphracts.

To be exact in what battle did this happen? I do not believe a slinger can do much damage to a man encased in armor(Full armor eastern cataphract), a sling can not penetrate armor and it would not be able to crush it either it would simply bounce off doing little damage. An hit on the face would be unpleasant though

[Sar1n]

To be exact in what battle did this happen? I do not believe a slinger can do much damage to a man encased in armor(Full armor eastern cataphract), a sling can not penetrate armor and it would not be able to crush it either it would simply bounce off doing little damage. An hit on the face would be unpleasant though

Slings are actually quite powerful. It doesn't penetrate armor, but the concussive effect is enough to break some bones and cause internal injuries. It's nothing like a thrown stone...lead bullet from sling carries far greater kinetic energy that can launch it to distances of 200-400 meters.

[k/t]

"Alternatively you could use my file that i've edited to make missiles overall less effective from the front. They will still do very lethal damage from flanks and rear"

How did you do that?

"The sling has a longer range (generally) and more force per projectile."

You can throw a stone two, three hundred metres with a sling? Even in this mod's time frame, some units should have composite bows.

"A stone from a sling can penetrate nearly all types of armor"

No, it can't. The force might cause an injury, but the armour will not be penetrated.

"If a slinger runs out of prepared ammunition, he can always pick up a rock."

The rocks have to be of a certain size, and in a forest or on a plain he might have to dig quite a bit to find suitable ones.

"only the best composite bows could outrange even famous Rhodian slingers using lead bullets"

What does "best" mean?

[Post Hoc]

"Alternatively you could use my file that i've edited to make missiles overall less effective from the front. They will still do very lethal damage from flanks and rear"

How did you do that?

Through a combination of things, mostly tweaking the shield stats. That file was done very hastily, I think i have found a good balance now after a decent amount of time spent balancing.

[Sar1n]

only the best composite bows could outrange even famous Rhodian slingers using lead bullets"

What does "best" mean?

Of course, best in the classical antiquity. Can't really compare them to welsh longbows, mongolian composite bows or late hunnic bows. Composite bow is rather broad term...

[k/t]

Yes, but in what way do you mean that one bow was better than another? Power? Quality of construction?

"mostly tweaking the shield stats"

This has an effect on melee too. It's better to adjust the projectile values. Well, the best option is to adjust all values in concert, as part of a system like RC.

[AqD]

The current unit recruitment hasn't yet took the availability of troops into consideration, hence the unbalanced stats of slingers. Most troops were very specialized and there were few of them, and they're nearly impossible to replenish. Losing a few thousands of slingers could mean the end of them. Same with cavalry and archers though the recruitment zone is wider. After Seleucid was formed, it took them several years to regroup/retrain persian archers and put them into army again, and those archers never numbered more than 10,000. It's a sharp contrast to legionaries and hoplites who require no more than a few months of training and every able-bodied men could enlist.

[k/t]

That's why RR also exists. ^^

[14th Gemina Martia Victrix]

Personally, I dont have any issue with the range or sound of the impact. I just imagine thats the sound a rock hitting helmets and shields, and the damage they do seems accurate to me. I dont even use slingers but i find it a nice challenge when the enemy has 3-5 units of them.