Question about game development

[Spajjder]

""Edit" Game Development and modding

Rome 1 had it's bugs, but the main functions except diplomacy somewhat worked.

Mtw2 had the same engine but "improved". Rome's problems were still there but in addition, there were new bugs, quite serious ones.

Spearwalls didn't work, everything got through it except cavalry sometimes, because they raised their spears. Crossbows shot in arches. Crossbows and guns often got stuck in their animation or rearranging themselves whilst being shot instead of shooting. Wedge's did not work.
Polearms and twohanded weapons did not work because their animation were so slow they got cut into pieces by faster wielding units.

This essentially removed half the units from being any useful, or at least much less useful than theyre supposed to be. It was much more efficient focusing on swords, spears, and cavalry than pikes, guns, crossbows etc.
People complained, but it was never fixed by CA. We got expansions but those core aspect were still broken.

Shogun 2 essentially worked. All the units did what theyre supposed to do, and thats largely why i liked it so much, the game felt complete at what it was aiming at, although a bit limited spectrum.

Rome 2 is made of the same engine "is it not?". Anyway, we've seen the weird behavior of phalanxes but not any good behaviour of them.
If Rome 2 has similar problems to MTW 2 compared with RTW, are they impossible to fix after release? If its possible to fix, how come CA nor any mod has managed to fix those problems in MTW 2? Do game developers just leave their products buggy and move on? How does the industry work? How does modding work? Mtw 2 was largely mod accesible, but no one has managed to fix these. Not even Darth I think, why is it so difficult?

[[N2]Kami]

Crossbow is way better than archer. You just need to arranging them before order them to shoot.
Well, spear war is to fence off cavalry charge and slow down troops. Not stop them completely like in 300.
I rarely use two handle weapon so I know nothing. Except one good cavalry charge, they all dead


And I hope R2 will be great as S2 too,although many people don't like S2 much.

[Rodent24]

They are reusing the Warscape engine (first used with ETW). Although with every iteration they make modifications of course.

The problems you describe are pretty much part of the core of an engine. In this case the animation system.
Once that code gets compiled there is no way to edit it unless you have access to the source code.
The only things that a modder can change are the files that are accessible. In the case of Warscape things are a lot less transparent than the previous engine used for MTW2.

Of course CA can fix problems like these. Empire total war was released in a terrible state and is quite playable in it's current form.
It did take them a like year to fix everything. Of course this is bad practice, but game developers are under tremendous pressure by publishers to release a game on time.

And once a game is released most of the staff start working on other projects (where money can be made). That's why patches can take a long time and some problems won't get fixed at all.

Now I wouldn't be to worried about the state Rome 2 is in. CA's latest games were in decent shape at release, although these games were not even close to the scope of R2.
I am sure they want to keep supporting the game for a long time in order to keep selling DLC.

And if a phalanx performs anything like the long yari ashigaru in S2, I'm happy.

[Spajjder]

And if a phalanx performs anything like the long yari ashigaru in S2, I'm happy.

Yes that is what I want too. It works really well in S2.
I just found it mindboggling they can release patches, expansions etc without fixing those things. I only could conclude it must be extremely difficult to fix.

I just dont want whole unit classes to be useles.

And about crossbows, I'll try it. they still shoot upwards instead of forward though lol

Seeing as this is Rome 2, I really really want it to succeed!

[magpie]

Hmm, Some bugs if they are minor and do not cause CTD issues may get ignored by the developer,s.
I suppose a lot depends on customer response to give motivation to the devs to fix them?

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Yeah, such a critical thing like the Phalanx really needs to be perfected. This era has a lot of factions that fully depend upon it. I hope CA have worked their magic and have something special to show us

[Raikou]

Yeah, such a critical thing like the Phalanx really needs to be perfected. This era has a lot of factions that fully depend upon it. I hope CA have worked their magic and have something special to show us

Somehow I have a bad feeling this will be 1 MAJOR talked about thing when the game releases.

Not because it doesn't work but because it won't work as some people expect it to (which it will probably work more like Shogun 2 yari ashigaru than Rome 1) but we will see. I have faith that CA will deliver

[DogSoldierSPQR]

Somehow I have a bad feeling this will be 1 MAJOR talked about thing when the game releases.

Not because it doesn't work but because it won't work as some people expect it to (which it will probably work more like Shogun 2 yari ashigaru than Rome 1) but we will see. I have faith that CA will deliver

Indeed. It definitely will not be a solid block of men no more. I'm all for a dynamic Phalanx with guys within it trying their best to maintain it and fight as individuals. I just hope that it is not completely useless. I still found that units in Shogun 2 could penetrate the Yari spearwall. I really hope that is not the case in Rome 2 with the Phalanx. Although some units could slowly make their way through such as Roman Legionaries but it would take a long time and those units would have to be very specialised to do so.

All in all, as long as a Phalanx can hold it's own in direct frontal combat I'll be happy. However, a flank should decimate a Phalanx.

[Spajjder]

Indeed. It definitely will not be a solid block of men no more. I'm all for a dynamic Phalanx with guys within it trying their best to maintain it and fight as individuals. I just hope that it is not completely useless. I still found that units in Shogun 2 could penetrate the Yari spearwall. I really hope that is not the case in Rome 2 with the Phalanx. Although some units could slowly make their way through such as Roman Legionaries but it would take a long time and those units would have to be very specialised to do so.

All in all, as long as a Phalanx can hold it's own in direct frontal combat I'll be happy. However, a flank should decimate a Phalanx.

I think its ok if one unit manages to get between some spears by for example other units pinning the spears with their shields. It should be as you say time consuming and difficult however. I just dont want the formation to lift their spears and shift to swords when they make contact.

Philip, is there any mod which just fixes those core aspects but isnt a total convertion mod?

[Påsan]

Spearwalls didn't work, everything got through it except cavalry sometimes, because they raised their spears. Crossbows shot in arches. Crossbows and guns often got stuck in their animation or rearranging themselves whilst being shot instead of shooting. Wedge's did not work.
Polearms and twohanded weapons did not work because their animation were so slow they got cut into pieces by faster wielding units.

This essentially removed half the units from being any useful, or at least much less useful than theyre supposed to be. It was much more efficient focusing on swords, spears, and cavalry than pikes, guns, crossbows etc.
People complained, but it was never fixed by CA. We got expansions but those core aspect were

I suggest you try either SS or TATW both by King Kong on mtw2. They fix all the problems you talk about. Crossbows are deadly, elite 2 handers destroy most other units, pike blocks are dangerous and almost invincible from the front and most med2 bugs are gone

[King Philip II]

""Edit" Game Development and modding

Rome 1 had it's bugs, but the main functions except diplomacy somewhat worked.

Mtw2 had the same engine but "improved". Rome's problems were still there but in addition, there were new bugs, quite serious ones.

Spearwalls didn't work, everything got through it except cavalry sometimes, because they raised their spears. Crossbows shot in arches. Crossbows and guns often got stuck in their animation or rearranging themselves whilst being shot instead of shooting. Wedge's did not work.
Polearms and twohanded weapons did not work because their animation were so slow they got cut into pieces by faster wielding units.

This essentially removed half the units from being any useful, or at least much less useful than theyre supposed to be. It was much more efficient focusing on swords, spears, and cavalry than pikes, guns, crossbows etc.
People complained, but it was never fixed by CA. We got expansions but those core aspect were still broken.

Shogun 2 essentially worked. All the units did what theyre supposed to do, and thats largely why i liked it so much, the game felt complete at what it was aiming at, although a bit limited spectrum.

Rome 2 is made of the same engine "is it not?". Anyway, we've seen the weird behavior of phalanxes but not any good behaviour of them.
If Rome 2 has similar problems to MTW 2 compared with RTW, are they impossible to fix after release? If its possible to fix, how come CA nor any mod has managed to fix those problems in MTW 2? Do game developers just leave their products buggy and move on? How does the industry work? How does modding work? Mtw 2 was largely mod accesible, but no one has managed to fix these. Not even Darth I think, why is it so difficult?

I have browsed through this thread, but I would like to answer you directly since you bring up some of the core issues with previous Total War titles. I'll start from the bottom and work my way up.
(1) The notorious "two-handed" bug was fixed by TWC modders in various forms and shapes (i.e. using other more effective animations such as the Janissary Halberd Infantry model). If you buy M2TW or the Kingdoms expansion today, you'll still see this bug in there and you're absolutely right, it makes factions who relu on two-handed weapons utterly useless, for example the Holy Roman Empire - a core faction.
(2) Many of the "bugs" have been fixed in ALL the major conversion mods. The character traits and ancillaries are are a well known buggy area in CA work. Maybe the programmers do not understand what they are programming, or maybe the ppl writing the design document have no clue. I don't know, but I do know that many mods have created some astonishing work in this area. For example, Europa Barbaroum with their Charisma/Intelligence/Energy natural "traits" determining the aquisition of all other skills, abilities and ancillaries. This was truely innovative - still is - and CA (read: SEGA) still hasen't understood that many customers like this part of the game.
(3) Modding is everything from making a few adjustments in text files to re-designing/designing a new game based on the same engine. Some Mod Teams have 20-30 members, while other Mods are created by "one-man-shows". I personally like creating the Mod together with likeminded - releasing the mod is just a pain in the arse.