Problem with Banners (banners of Kartli, Ardhan etc. are wrong)

[JERUSALEM]

we have the description of the almost all faction of Rome 2 Total War from CA and in those description you can see the banners of all factions among them are some, which are
quite accurate, but also many of them are not historically accurate, for example - Ardhan (Caucasian Albania) has a banner with the depiction of lioness, which is very famous sculpture from Achaemenid Susa of 6th - 4th cc. BC. and has nothing to do with Ardhan/Albania of Caucasus.
Also the banner of Kingdom of Kartli reminds me the banner of Germania from RTW 1.


HERE IS THE LIST OF FACTION WITH BANNERS:




SEE THE OFFICIAL BANNER OF ARDHAN FROM R2TW, WHICH IS ACHAEMENID STATUE, AND NOT ALBANIAN, KEPT IN LOUVRE, FRANCE. IT IS NOT ALBANIAN/ARDHAN !





THE BANNER OF GERMANIA FROM RTW1 AND THE BANNER OF KARTLI IS ALMOST THE SAME. I REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHERE THEY FIND IT AS CAUCASIAN IBERIAN/KARTLI BANNER




I HAVE ALREADY POSTED MY SUGGESTION FOR THE BANNER OF KARTLI (CAUCASIAN IBERIA) IN THIS TREAD, SEE HERE:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...beria-)/page13



So, what you guys think about the banners, maybe you also have some suggestions and corrections about this matter












.

[Doe3000]

I think most of these banners are fictional as most tribes, clans and empires depicted in Rome II had no such thing as a national flag or national symbol. Most peoples back in the Iron Age didn't even have what we would call a 'national identity'. As a result CA has no other choice than making up symbols - for instance I doubt the Suebi, Iceni etc had those symbols to represent them in ancient times, and they are among the game's main factions.

[Tim_Ward]

I think most of these banners are fictional as most tribes, clans and empires depicted in Rome II had no such thing as a national flag or national symbol. Most peoples back in the Iron Age didn't even have what we would call a 'national identity'. As a result CA has no other choice than making up symbols - for instance I doubt the Suebi, Iceni etc had those symbols to represent them in ancient times, and they are among the game's main factions.

Everyone read this. Then read the bolded part part again, and keep reading it until you get it.

[Heinz Guderian]

HERE IS THE LIST OF FACTION WITH BANNERS:

SEE THE OFFICIAL BANNER OF ARDHAN FROM R2TW, WHICH IS ACHAEMENID STATUE, AND NOT ALBANIAN, KEPT IN LOUVRE, FRANCE. IT IS NOT ALBANIAN/ARDHAN !

THE BANNER OF GERMANIA FROM RTW1 AND THE BANNER OF KARTLI IS ALMOST THE SAME. I REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHERE THEY FIND IT AS CAUCASIAN IBERIAN/KARTLI BANNER

I HAVE ALREADY POSTED MY SUGGESTION FOR THE BANNER OF KARTLI (CAUCASIAN IBERIA) IN THIS TREAD, SEE HERE:

I HOPE I SPEAK FOR AT LEAST TEN MEMBERS WHEN I SAY I HONESTLY DONT GIVE A **** WHAT FLAG THEY USE. THEY CAN USE TWO MEN KISSING AS THE ALBANIAN FLAG AND I WOULD STILL STILL PLAY IT. IN FACT I WOULD MOD IN A TWO MEN KISSING FLAG FOR ALBANIA IF THEY DONT USE MY SUGGESTION.

[Spartacus041]

I HOPE I SPEAK FOR AT LEAST TEN MEMBERS WHEN I SAY I HONESTLY DONT GIVE A **** WHAT FLAG THEY USE. THEY CAN USE TWO MEN KISSING AS THE ALBANIAN FLAG AND I WOULD STILL STILL PLAY IT. IN FACT I WOULD MOD IN A TWO MEN KISSING FLAG FOR ALBANIA IF THEY DONT USE MY SUGGESTION.

This is really offens... oh who the f am i kidding...

[RexImperator]

I HOPE I SPEAK FOR AT LEAST TEN MEMBERS WHEN I SAY I HONESTLY DONT GIVE A **** WHAT FLAG THEY USE. THEY CAN USE TWO MEN KISSING AS THE ALBANIAN FLAG AND I WOULD STILL STILL PLAY IT. IN FACT I WOULD MOD IN A TWO MEN KISSING FLAG FOR ALBANIA IF THEY DONT USE MY SUGGESTION.

If this is not = pre-order cancelled.

[BM309K58SMERCH]

I HOPE I SPEAK FOR AT LEAST TEN MEMBERS WHEN I SAY I HONESTLY DONT GIVE A **** WHAT FLAG THEY USE. THEY CAN USE TWO MEN KISSING AS THE ALBANIAN FLAG AND I WOULD STILL STILL PLAY IT. IN FACT I WOULD MOD IN A TWO MEN KISSING FLAG FOR ALBANIA IF THEY DONT USE MY SUGGESTION.

Nooo, not Albania.

[Lord of the Isles]

I HOPE I SPEAK FOR AT LEAST TEN MEMBERS WHEN I SAY I HONESTLY DONT GIVE A **** WHAT FLAG THEY USE. THEY CAN USE TWO MEN KISSING AS THE ALBANIAN FLAG AND I WOULD STILL STILL PLAY IT. IN FACT I WOULD MOD IN A TWO MEN KISSING FLAG FOR ALBANIA IF THEY DONT USE MY SUGGESTION.

LET ME BE THE FIRST OF THE TEN. AND LET THE HEIGHT OF THESE UPPER CASE LETTERS ATTEST TO HOW MUCH I AGREE.

[Emperor Domitianus]

we have the description of the almost all faction of Rome 2 Total War from CA and in those description you can see the banners of all factions among them are some, which are
quite accurate, but also many of them are not historically accurate, for example - Ardhan (Caucasian Albania) has a banner with the depiction of lioness, which is very famous sculpture from Achaemenid Susa of 6th - 4th cc. BC. and has nothing to do with Ardhan/Albania of Caucasus.
Also the banner of Kingdom of Kartli reminds me the banner of Germania from RTW 1.


HERE IS THE LIST OF FACTION WITH BANNERS:




SEE THE OFFICIAL BANNER OF ARDHAN FROM R2TW, WHICH IS ACHAEMENID STATUE, AND NOT ALBANIAN, KEPT IN LOUVRE, FRANCE. IT IS NOT ALBANIAN/ARDHAN !





THE BANNER OF GERMANIA FROM RTW1 AND THE BANNER OF KARTLI IS ALMOST THE SAME. I REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHERE THEY FIND IT AS CAUCASIAN IBERIAN/KARTLI BANNER




I HAVE ALREADY POSTED MY SUGGESTION FOR THE BANNER OF KARTLI (CAUCASIAN IBERIA) IN THIS TREAD, SEE HERE:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...beria-)/page13



So, what you guys think about the banners, maybe you also have some suggestions and corrections about this matter












.

You really have nothing better to look around and finding something to complain about.

[JERUSALEM]

You really have nothing better to look around and finding something to complain about.

No I just want the game to be better in historical point of view. Am I clear?


and for the other members, plz close to the topic, this tread is not about the game in total but about the banners. I know that in ancient times there were very few banners, but where was
sertainly the nation, not from the modern perspective but they had ethnical sense and they also shared the common symbols, hence I want CA to use those symbols rather than
Achaemenid symbol instead of Albanian. I think my posts are quite clear, I really think that the game is good, but I want it to be better before release, so if it is possible to correct any
errors as much as it is available for the CA.



So if there are other errors plz post it, we need some historical reality for each faction in the game and i am more concerned about the Caucasian factions, that is all




.

[d4g4n]

The 2 men kissing is the historical correct flag, right?

Could have sworn in read/saw it somewhere in Albanias history textbook.

[theDaedricPrince]

Sigh.

[Spartacus041]

I like you Jerusalem.

[Martz]

I hope this is getting to the point where this is all self-parody.

[HannibalExMachina]

could we get two women kissing, if its all the same to heinz?

[JERUSALEM]

these are materials about the military history of Caucasian Albania (Ardhan) and some possible symbols

bronze plate with the depiction of javalinman from Albania, modern Azerbaijan


copper plate with the depiction of archer also from Caucasian Albania, Azerbaijan




This is a 2nd century AD depiction of two swans from Caucasian Albania, modern village of bartim in Azerbaijan



the same symbol was found in the church dated to 5th - 6 th AD, which means that the depiction of swans were used not only in pagan Albania/Ardhan,
but during the Christian period as well and this simbol can be used as a banner of Ardhan faction in RTW2

here is the second image from 5th - 6th cc. church in Albania/Ardhan. The difference is that the 5-6 cc. depicted swans have the stick with the cross
between them, which is Christian symbol (from 4th to 6th cc. Albania/Ardhan was Christian Kingdom, and later was occupied by Sassanid Iran), but
2nd c. AD depiction has no cross between those swans, that means that it was pagan symbol of Albania/Ardhan, just without cross.
I think i have done good research spending a lot of time for seeking the Caucasian Albanian symbols.







.

[JERUSALEM]

I have searched the information about the banner of Kingdom of Kartli and came across to the Armenian translation of Life of Kartli (life/history of Kartli/Georgia under the name - Georgian Chronicle) it include the history by Juansher Juansheriani "Life of King Vakhtang" (8th century) and it has a passage about the royal crown (hamlet) of king of Kartli, Vakhtang I Gorgasali, the passage is following:

"Vaxt'ang made a helmet fashioned of gold and on it, images of a wolf and a lion. During battle [the enemy] would see and recognize [the helmet] and say: "Stay away from the wolf and the lion." And they called him Gurgasal, that is Wolf-Lion in Persian. However, his hope was in Christ God Whom he always glorified" (see the chapter 14, p. 79)

http://rbedrosian.com/gc5.htm


So as I have pointed before the totem of ancient Kartli was a wolf, and the country was called by Persian as "the Land of Wolves", hence the banner should be the head of the wolf, like here in East of Rome mode




See also here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...beria-)/page13






.

[Markas]

I have searched the information about the banner of Kingdom of Kartli and came across to the Armenian translation of Life of Kartli (life/history of Kartli/Georgia under the name - Georgian Chronicle) it include the history by Juansher Juansheriani "Life of King Vakhtang" (8th century) and it has a passage about the royal crown (hamlet) of king of Kartli, Vakhtang I Gorgasali, the passage is following:

"Vaxt'ang made a helmet fashioned of gold and on it, images of a wolf and a lion. During battle [the enemy] would see and recognize [the helmet] and say: "Stay away from the wolf and the lion." And they called him Gurgasal, that is Wolf-Lion in Persian. However, his hope was in Christ God Whom he always glorified" (see the chapter 14, p. 79)

http://rbedrosian.com/gc5.htm


So as I have pointed before the totem of ancient Kartli was a wolf, and the country was called by Persian as "the Land of Wolves", hence the banner should be the head of the wolf, like here in East of Rome mode




See also here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...beria-)/page13

I haven't seen any sources that aren't about 1000 years away from Rome 2's start period. Hardly proof.

[JERUSALEM]

I haven't seen any sources that aren't about 1000 years away from Rome 2's start period. Hardly proof.

Yes the source is quite late (8th century AD, not 1st AD or before), I agree, but it is about the 5th century AD king, which is also quite late, b u t the symbol that was placed on the crown is pagan, not Christian,
and as a pagan symbol it should be dated well before 4th century AD, and the fact that local Kartlian population used the symbol of wolf as a totem make it clear that it was
their symbol in antique period, before Christianity was introduced in the 4th century. Also the ancient Persian name for Kartli was "the land of Wolves" as I have already mention, that mean that they really had a Wolf as a certain symbol
So, it is just my opinion to place the head of the wolf on the Kartli banner maybe someone will find something better instead.
And I totally disagree with those use's view that ancient faction/kingdoms/tribes had no symbols, no guys, they had the symbols and they even had
the banner and flags, which they carry in the battles, and this thread is to correct some errors, if it is possible until the game, Rome 2TW is released.
I hope you all critics will understand that, is it not about the dislike of the game, it is more about suggestion and good will, I will play the game anyway, but I want
it to be more accurate, and much better, in any sense or in every direction. That is all.






.

[Rostam_e_Iran]