Koinon Hellenon Government Types

**Hummer** · July 16, 2013, 12:04 PM

EB newbie hoping to turn into an intermediate player....

Found EB 3 months ago, played a Romani campaign first, then a Kart-Hadast, decided on Koinon Hellonon for a larger challenge. Playing on H/M.

As mentioned I recently started an KH campaign for the first time. I have thoroughly enjoyed it to date and I think this campaign really captures the essence of EB. Different style of play and strategy in battle scenes. I have been enjoying watching my hoplites on guard mode, holding a steady line as my kretan archers tear apart the enemy. Anyway, I digress...

I have only expanded north on the Greek mainland as far as Ambrakia and Demitrias to date. I'm wondering what others think of the government types, what you have used and what would have been the most historically accurate. Thoughts, opinions and facts are appreciated. Some questions...

1. Why does Rhodes not have a Homeland Resource available?
2. Why does Athenai have a Homeland Resource available but has a Type 2 government installed when the game begins?
3. Which government Type is most economical?
4. If I switched Athenai from a Type 2 to a Type 1, would the economy suffer? (I have noticed Athenai appears to be the largest trading center in the area and has a large income from Trade)
5. What would be the best government type for example for Demitrias, Korinthos and Thermon, and other mainland Greek cities? (Typically I always install the most Factional Type of government I can[Type 1 if I can, if not, Type 2 government])
6. Would anyone install a Type 2 in one of the cities mentioned in Question 5 even if a Type 1 was available(for gameplay purposes or for roleplaying purposes)?
7. If you start expanding outside of mainland Greece, is the Type 3 the most historically accurate in terms of expansionist colonies?
8. (sort of the same question as Question 7) If role playing, what is the proper method of distributing government types per area? (for example, mainland Greece, all Type 1 and 2, but all other colonies on Sicily or the Black Sea would be Type 3....)

Like I mentioned thoughts, opinions, and facts are appreciated. I have observed other discussions on the TW center here on how the 3 cities only forged a defensive alliance but usually didn't like co-operating. So I suppose some of the questions listed above regarding KH government expansion may not be relevant as a KH nation may not have ever had the opportunity to occur.

Would love to have a Greek historian or KH buff give their ideas on the questions listed above.

And any hints on the KH gameplay would be appreciated, although I seem to be doing OK. Specifically in regards to military strategy. My economy is doing well and my next target is Pella for the mining.

Cheers, and Thanks

**Hermod** · July 16, 2013, 08:54 PM

Someone else will probably answer this better than I, seeing as I have never played KH, but I will try to answer some of your general questions. First, I am pretty confident that it is always best to build Type I wherever possible, it is best economically and can produce all your factional units. So switching from Type II to Type I is better economically for the long run I believe. Type I regions are so limited as well that I would try to build them wherever possible.

As far as expansion goes, if you are roleplaying I personally believe in building Type IV governments before moving on to Type III after 10 or 15 years then Type II. You can train some pretty good regional units with Type III and IV barracks as well, so I would check the recruitment viewer to plan out some regions to permanently stay those government types to produce their unique troops.

As far as strategy, Pella is a good choice of target, it is a cash cow but really the whole Greek peninsula is one of the best economic areas in the game in my opinion so you should be set.

**Entropy Judge** · July 16, 2013, 09:20 PM

This is all "IIRC" since I haven't even opened EB in ... uh, a year? More? Anyway ...

Originally Posted by mattgregg87

1. Why does Rhodes not have a Homeland Resource available?

A quick Wiki-skim (not the best place, true, but it's often useful) indicates that Rhodes didn't become a 'Greek' city/island until the 400s BC. Given that, it seems likely that it probably wouldn't have been considered a 'Homeland' by the Greeks themselves.

2. Why does Athenai have a Homeland Resource available but has a Type 2 government installed when the game begins?

This, IIRC, is because the KH government systems are based on Spartan hegemony. Also, read the background of the government types (Look at the info on them in-game); it should say something that would explain it.

3. Which government Type is most economical?

Depends on the faction; usually it'll be either the Type I or Type II, though; check the benefits - you want Law and Trade bonuses; Tax is okay, but doesn't give as much of an increase as the Trade bonus. Raw Happiness and Population are less important. If I can find my Rome disc, I'll either edit this post for more information or make a new post, depending on whether any posts are after this one.

6. Would anyone install a Type 2 in one of the cities mentioned in Question 5 even if a Type 1 was available(for gameplay purposes or for roleplaying purposes)?

Presumably yes, for the same reasons Athens has a Type II, or if Type II is more beneficial than Type I, or for other roleplay reasons.

**moriluk** · July 17, 2013, 05:00 AM

A level one gov represents a Spartan government. Typically an oligarchy. It should only be used in very few cities that would be run by Spartans. Mainly Krete and maybe Thermon, the Capitol of Epeiros, and possibly Taras.

A level 2 is fine in most places as you do not miss much. It can either represent a colony of Sparte or a classic City-State. It can represent a democracy or a princedom or what ever you wish. Either way it is the standard gov of Koinon imo. In the game engine there are limits and this faction in the game is sort of reprented as a kingdom where sparte is the capitol and everyone else are the subjects. But that is not really the case irl. It was an alliance of various Hellenic city-states that were all loosely allied with Ptolemy in one way or another. So there are not really any "subjects" of the "kingdom".

With level 2 gov you can recruit all the best factional troops except for Spartan hoplites (only recruitable in Sparta) & stone thrower. You also lose out on level 2 gym (not that important, level 1 gets you the exp bonus), level 5 naval port in Epeiros...not not much else I can remember. The trade bonus in a level one is actually a trade decrease. Most governors will suffer in a level one, Spartans usually excel. Most governors excel in level 2, some in level 3. Spartans don't often do as well in level 2 as many governors, and do worse in level 3.

Level 3 is most economical I think, at least outside of "subjugation". It can represent a colony and it can also still represent a city-state outside of "subjugation".

Best to read up on the various Hellenic leagues in this time frame like the Chremonidean league, the Aetolian league, etc to get ideas on how to rp this faction. You will basically get to play out the Chremonidean war in the early turns.

**athanaric** · July 17, 2013, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by moriluk

You also lose out on level 2 gym (not that important, level 1 gets you the exp bonus), level 5 naval port in Epeiros...

Actually, you don't. The only drawbacks of Type II are the recruitment issue you mentioned, and the loss of the tier 3 (not 2) gym (actually tier 4, if you count the game field). As you mentioned, tier 1 gym is the most important; the two tiers above add a happiness bonus and a nice description, but that's it. Type I government bestows some economic penalties, so Type II is just as good, if not better economy-wise. Type II also allows for tier 3 regional MIC, which can be important in some regions (like in Asia Minor).

**Cyclops** · July 17, 2013, 05:18 PM

I had a vague memory that gyms gave a negative happiness? Not sure though.

In my current KH campaign I use them as RP, basically only Sparta is type I, and all Hellenic settlements get the highest possible (usually II) except Korinth which gets III, and barbaroi of course get IV. I'm trying to send FM's to the appropriate zones (Pontians to Euxine region, Korinthians and Syracusans to Syracuse, Athenians and Ionians to Ionia, Kres and Rhodians to the island etc) and Spartans are the army leaders but no city responsibility (except in newly conquered cities to start building queues and recruit Allied generals).

Unfortunately the recruited generals are a mixed bunch, there's some Athenians ruling Thrakia (not too bad) but a Korintian as despot of Illyria (hmm, I can't see a refined noble Korinthian spending time in the boondocks but nevermind, he's an administrative genius).

**moriluk** · July 17, 2013, 08:56 PM

Yes, you can get lvl5 naval port without lvl1 gov. forgot. I am playing my first Koinon campaign in a long time so I felt like elaborating.

The larger gym gets a slight negative law bonus but overall adds public order.

For both practicality and realism I use level 4 for any non-Greek territory, 1-3 for any Greek/Hellenic/Macedonian territories depending on troop availability or who will be governing.

Koinon is one of the better factions for non-factional infantries. In early expansion one is best to use level 4 gov in territories north of Macedonia to access Thracian peltasts, Thracian elite's, & Scordisci. It is best to consort the recruitment viewer. Usually lvl2 in western provinces of Turkey and lvl3 or 4 gov in eastern provinces of Turkey allows for best troops overall. Lvl4 in Galatia. But I think one is hindering themselves if they are putting a level 1 gov in Athens..unless it is conquered and then saved by the Spartans.

As for deciding based on govorners, here is my logic in early expansion...
Koinon FM from Epeiros will govern best in level 3, so if you put them to govern their homeland, best to use a 3. If you use someone else usually a 2 is best. If the Spartans expand up the west coast then lvl1 everything. Syracusians govern best in level 2, so naturally level 2 for Syracuse (which also gets you all of your standard factional troops). Taras was an ancient Spartan colony, so I like to restore that with lvl1. It gets most factional troops + Tarantine cav. But it also gets good Italian troops from local mics. And there are people from Tarantine in the Koinon who excel in lvl2 or 3 gov. So you can build lvl 3 gov and get Samnite Heavy infantry while still being able to access peltasts, classical hoplites, and Thureophoroi if you choose Italian governors.

**Boriak** · July 18, 2013, 04:02 AM

I think KH government types are much more role-play wise than those of others. Most other empires are kingdoms or with a ruling aristocratic society. Koinon Hellenon is a confederation of very different regimes: two kings for Sparta, democracy for Athens (varies with time really), and Rhodos (not even sure if Rhodos was a democracy or kingdom or something else entirely). Syracuse was a very successful tyranny for a long time (in my campaign, it's a primary city and a future capitol). I love the Greek campaign for these RP reasons, plus because they are a non-phalanx culture, surrounded by Successor states, and they get tons of unique units everywhere around the Mediterranean.

Game-wise, only Sparta has a Type I government and if you check its pros and cons it makes sense for Sparta to have it and Athens to not have it. You don't miss out on any units because you keep a Type II government in poleis other than Sparta (only Spartan Hoplites in Level 5 barracks and they're strictly regional).

**athanaric** · July 18, 2013, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by Boriak

(only Spartan Hoplites in Level 5 barracks and they're strictly regional).

And the larger artillery pieces. But most people don't use them, anyway.

**Boriak** · July 18, 2013, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by athanaric

And the larger artillery pieces. But most people don't use them, anyway.

Too expensive and way too slow to move. The only way to use them is when defending or when you are attacking a city and need to punch through walls fast. But I don't see what could the AI possibly throw at me that I couldn't solve with an army I could get from the equivalent price of that ballista. If I could put them on walls or make them shoot over the walls, that would be useful. And potentially ruin the game.