"Why not.."

[Killzone_040]

Hello all,
feel free to use the thread for everything related to the topic at hand, I guess

My question is; Why not use a force consisting mostly (if not all) of AP units, except for the simple fact this wouldn't be historically accurate? I've looked into the stats of the units and, at first glance, can't really think of any reason not to use them en masse. They aren't that rubbish, in most cases just their regular stats are on par with most same-level units, or aren't they ?

Thanks in advance!

[Frtigern]

You could have an army of all Teceitos (Celtic Axemen). In some ways it reflects how a majority of the men in their culture fought. They picked up tools they used for logging and construction, like their axe and a shield and went to war. Swords were a luxury in early ancient times. Poorer males could only had access to spears or axes. The thing that will hurt them is when they encounter and army of missile units or cavalry, but if they are primarily going up against spearmen or swordsmen then I don't see why not. I love axes and seeing then chop through hundreds of poor souls. Their cheap too.

[athanaric]

A combination of Teceitos and Appea Gaedotos plus some Iaosatae and Leuce Epos should be pretty balanced, with each unit having one AP weapon and a secondary one.

[Killzone_040]

So, both of you reckon it would actually be a (very) viable option? I thought that there would be certain drawbacks, except for the vulnerability to a cav charge and missiles, to fielding a force composed entirely of AP units. Wouldn't a(n? ) high lethality unit be a counter to AP units as well?

[Entropy Judge]

I thought that there would be certain drawbacks, except for the vulnerability to a cav charge and missiles, to fielding a force composed entirely of AP units.

Biggest 'drawback' is that availability of AP troops isn't spread well. A few factions have decent factional early AP units (Casse, Sweboz, Lusotanna ... maybe Getai (doesn't know Getai roster), but most have only a few higher-tier units with AP, apart from Cavalry units/slingers; you have to go hunting for good regionals most of the time.

Wouldn't a(n? ) high lethality unit be a counter to AP units as well?

Theoretically, but the AI won't go for them just because you're throwing AP units out. That and most hi-L units are either high-tier or vulnerable to missiles.

[athanaric]

So, both of you reckon it would actually be a (very) viable option? I thought that there would be certain drawbacks, except for the vulnerability to a cav charge and missiles, to fielding a force composed entirely of AP units. Wouldn't a(n? ) high lethality unit be a counter to AP units as well?

Sorry, forgot to address that one. The combination I suggested above would be pretty well-rounded. Appea Gaedotos are spearmen with axes as sidearm, which means they're supremely useful against cavalry of all kinds. Also, Teceitos and Appea Gaedotos are both moderately well protected. These two units are actually more in the "jack-of-all-trades" category - together with Peltastai (all four variants - Hellenic, Indo-Hellenic, Thracian, and Makedonian elite peltasts), Thureophoroi (both variants), Persian Hoplites, Jewish Spearmen, and of course legionaries - than just being dedicated AP troops. Asturian Axemen, OTOH, are AP specialists, being even more dangerous on the offensive, but their armour/shield is weaker and their AP javelins are slightly inferior in terms of range.

Biggest 'drawback' is that availability of AP troops isn't spread well.

And that many AP units (i.e. those armed with kopeis or similar swords) have sub par lethality, unless you're using a balance mod.

A few factions have decent factional early AP units (Casse, Sweboz, Lusotanna ... maybe Getai (doesn't know Getai roster),

Oh yes, Getai have AP units. Their basic zerg rush unit (Drapanai) has terrifying close combat stats (.226 lethality, high attack, AP). Also, they have Kostobok axemen which are slightly more balanced. And heavy cavalry with lances. And slingers. And privileged access to Thracian, Germanic, Scythian, and Celtic units, some of which also have AP weapons. I think the three "non-Celtic" barbarian factions have the best selection of native AP units*. Other factions with a good selection of "native" AP units are the three Iranian ones (though for Sauromatae that's mainly lancers in different weight classes), and Baktria with its heavy cavalry and Iranian and Indian regional troops.

but most have only a few higher-tier units with AP, apart from Cavalry units/slingers

Indeed. Though that's primarily a problem of Greeks, Romans, Gauls, and Semitic factions. Who happen to occupy half of the map between them

you have to go hunting for good regionals most of the time.

Indeed, and there's plenty of them around.


*) Lusotannan: most units (the only ones that don't have AP weapons are Iovamann, Gestikapoinann, Scortamareva, Iabarannta, Gaesamica, and Clona Gosnaisno. All of whom are either spearmen or skirmishers).
Sweboz: Sloxonez, Chatti clubmen, Worgozez, Bastarnae falxmen. Plus the heavy cavalry unit with lances.
Getai: Drapanai, Kostobok axemen; also Ktistai and Tarabostes with their lances, and Komatai slingers. Thracian skirmishers, falxmen, and Prodromoi probably count as well, if they're recruitable from the native MIC.

[Frtigern]

Yes its a viable option. You could build up an army consisting of AP units. Axemen, clubmen, and falxmen from northern and eastern Europe and see how they do. In Spain you could have an army of Ambakaro, Callaecae Roscaithrera, Clona Tekonac, Iberi Caetrati, Loricati Caetrati and Loricati Scutari, and that's just infantry. You could add Balearic Slingers for your missile units. Iberian Light Cavalry, Cantabrian Light Cavalry, Lusotannan Bodyguard Cavalry, Lusotannan Elite Medium Cavalry, Iberian Medium Cavalry, Iberian Heavy Cavalry and the medium cavalry are very hardy so you can keep charging and charging. To top it all off most of the Iberian and Lusotannan infantry carry AP javelins, so double whammy. I don't think there's anywhere else on the map where there is such a concentrated composition of AP units than Spain. A big pain for the Carthaginians even with their very best infantry and cavalry. But Lusotanna is vulnerable to heavy cavalry of Hellenic states, because their cavalry aren't as good. I would add couple spearmen into that army just in case I met an army with some good heavy cavalry.

[Boriak]

Yep, Iberian AP units are a pain. My Roman butt is still sore...