Cavalry stats

[TheSilverBranch]

Hey guys,

could you give a short explanation, why you tweaked the cavalry stats to this absurdly low level? I was really astonished this morning as my Pappenheim Cuirassiers charged a regiment of pikemen from behind and absolutely nothing happened. I understand that you had to weaken mounted units because they are to powerful in the hands of the human player and because of their historical use during that time, but now they are almost useless in my opinion.

So, what parameters would I have to change in the EDU, to get their charge back to a reasonable level?

Thanks in advance!

[Yayattasa]

Hey guys,

could you give a short explanation, why you tweaked the cavalry stats to this absurdly low level? I was really astonished this morning as my Pappenheim Cuirassiers charged a regiment of pikemen from behind and absolutely nothing happened. I understand that you had to weaken mounted units because they are to powerful in the hands of the human player and because of their historical use during that time, but now they are almost useless in my opinion.

So, what parameters would I have to change in the EDU, to get their charge back to a reasonable level?

Thanks in advance!

They said they kept the charge status low, because this kind of cavalry was not meant to charge enemy formations. Otherwise, they can still put up some melee.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Cavalry did not charge infantry at this period. There are no known cases where cavalry charged pikemen successfully. If you know any, please post them.

The cavalry is strong enough for what they cost. Even too strong. They can charge pikemen successfully, if you follow John Cruso's instructions. There is no reason for the cavalry to be any stronger.

Making cavalry stronger is also unfair for the computer player, since the computer uses cavalry extremely ineffectively.

[TheSilverBranch]

Of course, cavalry should by no means be able to successfully charge pikemen!
But I think, they should be able to rout a unit of musketeers, because it gets pretty anti-physical if a charge of a bunch of horses mounted by iron-clad guys doesn't send musketeers flying. Maybe one could raise their charge, but keep the other parameters low to prevent cavalry from staying to long in melee. Also, according to your tactical manual, polish Hussaria should be able to keep up a good fight, don't you think?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Of course, cavalry should by no means be able to successfully charge pikemen!
But I think, they should be able to rout a unit of musketeers, because it gets pretty anti-physical if a charge of a bunch of horses mounted by iron-clad guys doesn't send musketeers flying. Maybe one could raise their charge, but keep the other parameters low to prevent cavalry from staying to long in melee. Also, according to your tactical manual, polish Hussaria should be able to keep up a good fight, don't you think?

Musketeers fought either as part of a pike and shot formation (where they would have the support of pikemen) or otherwise covered behind walls, fences or hedges. So in fact not only were they near-invulnerable to cavalry attacks but could fire at cavalry from safety. Musket shot could penetrate armour, whereas the Cuirassiers' pistols could not penetrate armour (or stone walls). Cavalry also presented bigger targets. So in practice cavalry never attacked line infantry, whether pikemen or musketeers. Nonetheless, the way the stats are, cavalry can defeat both pikemen and musketeers in equal numbers even on very hard, if used carefully. To improve your chances you can increase their experience by giving them easier missions then use them against line infantry once they have the experience. In this mod, increased experience goes a long way with cavalry. You can also set battles to normal or easy difficulty, which increases the chances that an enemy unit will rout if it suffers a morale shock, such as when charged by cavalry.

Here are a couple of examples of cavalry used against infantry:

[Monguntiacum]

i still love our sounds
a teammate recorded them at a reenactment battle.

[TheSilverBranch]

Thank you very much for that elaborate demonstration! I'll try out these tactics the next time.
However, I still think that a slightly raised charge wouldn't hurt in terms of physics. Besides, could you maybe change the stats of the cavalry regiments to that effect, that elite regiments are "clearly" better than the ordinary cuirassiers? I don't know much about the Pappenheim cuirassiers for example, but shouldn't they be able to defeat a regiment of "normal" cuirassiers? At the moment, they get absolutely butchered when in close quarters.

[k/t]

"a slightly raised charge wouldn't hurt in terms of physics"

You could increase the mass of the horses.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Thank you very much for that elaborate demonstration! I'll try out these tactics the next time.
However, I still think that a slightly raised charge wouldn't hurt in terms of physics. Besides, could you maybe change the stats of the cavalry regiments to that effect, that elite regiments are "clearly" better than the ordinary cuirassiers? I don't know much about the Pappenheim cuirassiers for example, but shouldn't they be able to defeat a regiment of "normal" cuirassiers? At the moment, they get absolutely butchered when in close quarters.

The Pappenheimer Cuirassiers charge better than normal Cuirassiers because of their square formation and training but are not as good if pinned down in melee against other Cuirassiers of that period. We could change that. However, since the computer player will often use them against infantry while the human player can use them more inteliigently, overall they should do better than normal Cuirassiers. They cost only slightly more than normal Cuirassiers.

[k/t]

Why aren't they as good in melee against other cavalry?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

The Pappenheimer Cuirassiers have slightly lower defense skill and different formation and spacing. I made some tests this morning and whereas the horde formation disadvantaged the Cornet and named regiment Cuirassiers, I seem unable to notice a difference with the current lower stats. In effect the early normal Cuirassiers are now OP for their cost. For 880 Gulden, they should lose something like two points of defense skill and a hit point, or maybe one point of defense skill and one point of charge, something like that.

[k/t]

I meant "were they historically crappy?". Are these stat differences merely for the game?

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I meant "were they historically crappy?". Are these stat differences merely for the game?

No, they should be more disciplined and better trained than regular Cuirassiers, since Pappenheim was one of the better cavalry generals of the Thirty Years War. Since historically they were better trained, the idea was they should be better at charging other contemporary Cuirassiers, hence their better looking formations and discipline. Unfortunately this does not seem to have currently much of an effect, although I think it had a small effect in battles before lowering the cavalry stats. They should probably be the best Cuirassiers prior to the reform event.

[Monguntiacum]

The Pappenheimer are very famous in Germany, as a very ruthless, fanatic and hardy formation. They were in fact a more for melee cuirassiers then "normal" cuirassiers also their scary reputation helps to spread fear. while modding i considered to give them "frighten_" in EDU.