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Thread: Seether's Gameplay Notes

  1. #41

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Maybe also a bigger gap between bad, mediocre, good, and elite bodyguard units. Generally, the bodyguard units are all above-average within a reasonable range. So for example I was able to take 3 Yuan Shu scrubs -- I can't even remember which, other than that it didn't even include Ji Ling -- and beat Lu Bu to death with them simply by surrounding him and going (charge from three sides) ---> (withdraw) ---> (charge again) ---> etc.

    Every General's Bodyguard unit in the field really adds to an army's strength in MTW2. But there's no reason that 5 mediocre "named characters" would be any more of a threat to an army led by, for example, Xiahou Yuan and Xiahou Dun, than 2 of them. For advisers and garbage commanders (I'm looking at you, Chunyu Qiong), there's really no reason the bodyguard unit should be substantially better than a regular 2nd-level (non-levy) unit of the same type.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    You could handle this by making the bodyguard units smaller. Then you give the scrub commanders the basic BG stats but then you have the strong generals bodyguards with extra HP armor and damage. And i am really stressing adding the frighten enemy trait to the BG unit of generals like Lu Bu zhao yun xiahou dun, etc.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by mischadc View Post
    Maybe also a bigger gap between bad, mediocre, good, and elite bodyguard units. Generally, the bodyguard units are all above-average within a reasonable range. So for example I was able to take 3 Yuan Shu scrubs -- I can't even remember which, other than that it didn't even include Ji Ling -- and beat Lu Bu to death with them simply by surrounding him and going (charge from three sides) ---> (withdraw) ---> (charge again) ---> etc.

    Every General's Bodyguard unit in the field really adds to an army's strength in MTW2. But there's no reason that 5 mediocre "named characters" would be any more of a threat to an army led by, for example, Xiahou Yuan and Xiahou Dun, than 2 of them. For advisers and garbage commanders (I'm looking at you, Chunyu Qiong), there's really no reason the bodyguard unit should be substantially better than a regular 2nd-level (non-levy) unit of the same type.
    So essentially what you are saying is that better/more famous generals should have better bodyguards than "scrubs"? Why? Bodyguards are soldiers that defend generals and officials, not the general/official themselves; characters have their own traits and stats that deal with how they personally fare in battle. Also, bodyguards would be substantially better armed, armored, trained, and skilled than any regular soldier because they are, after all, hand-selected and defending the most important people on the battlefield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gongsunzan
    You could handle this by making the bodyguard units smaller. Then you give the scrub commanders the basic BG stats but then you have the strong generals bodyguards with extra HP armor and damage. And i am really stressing adding the frighten enemy trait to the BG unit of generals like Lu Bu zhao yun xiahou dun, etc.
    Why would Zhao Yun frighten the enemy?
    Last edited by Seether; August 20, 2013 at 04:29 PM.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Yeah you got a point on bodyguards being weaker and stronger based on the general they are with. Even the scrubs would have the best men defending them. Adding the frighten enemy trait to the BG of the more powerful generals would be a less intrusive way of differentiating the combat prowess of the individual generals.


    Zhao Yun is a famed warrior and soldiers would fear facing him. Just like the elite troops that you guys have that frighten enemy. I know several generals who scared the enemy. Dian wei when he defended cao cao at wan castle. Even when he was dead the soldiers feared to approach him because he was still standing. I dont know if thats historical or fictitious. Lu bu definetly frightned people. Zhang liao frightened the wu soldiers at he fei. Zhang Fei at Chang ban. Yan Liang and Wen chou were fearsome generals. I think adding the frighten enemy trait gives the generals a more powerful feel without having to update the stats too much. And gives them a more tactical appeal instead of just being a really powerful cavalry unit to smash into enemy lines.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    I'm not sure how to approach it yet, but perhaps frighten (and other things) could be assigned to generals as special abilities instead; like increased attack, frighten, and a number of other things. Kind of defeats the purpose of a frighten the enemy attribute if a ton of characters have it. I think it would be much better to have more diversity and give special abilities to a select number of characters.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Seether View Post
    I'm not sure how to approach it yet, but perhaps frighten (and other things) could be assigned to generals as special abilities instead; like increased attack, frighten, and a number of other things. Kind of defeats the purpose of a frighten the enemy attribute if a ton of characters have it. I think it would be much better to have more diversity and give special abilities to a select number of characters.
    You sir get a rep for that. Giving special abilities to generals is a good plan. Generals of rather low renown could be given a basic ability to increase moral slightly. If you just rely on rally horn, generals who aren't the main commander wont be able to rally troops but an assigned special ability can be used in battle by generals who aren't the main commander.

    Also with the current game I never find myself in a position where i need to use the rally horn... Even in a losing battle with my troops surrounded they will hold the line until theres 5-10 men left. In vanilla med 2 i found myself using the rally horn quite a few battles to hold my troops together. My general can be running all willy nilly about the battle feild and my troops will still fight on. I dont know if you might want to lower troop morale a bit?

    If you lower troop morale you need to worry about the enemy troops morale being too low. Currently I can usually kill the enemy general and rout the enemy army fairly easily. Lowering the moral would make it too easy. I know third age total war did something with its computer troops where any troops that was AI recruited got a +3 morale bonus. Id go as far as giving them a +5 morale bonus.
    Last edited by Gongsunzan; August 20, 2013 at 05:06 PM.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    "Why? Bodyguards are soldiers that defend generals and officials, not the general/official themselves; characters have their own traits and stats that deal with how they personally fare in battle. Also, bodyguards would be substantially better armed, armored, trained, and skilled than any regular soldier because they are, after all, hand-selected and defending the most important people on the battlefield. "

    Because the bodyguard unit represents that leader's physical presence in combat. Yes, leaders have Command ratings that give better or worse morale and other effects on other units. But that doesn't accurately cover the actual combat role of an individual, which is what some leaders -- Xu Zhu, Dian Wei, Zhao Yun saving Liu Bei's kid -- were famed for. This is very different from command skill. In some cases it overlaps (Zhao Yun), in others it really doesn't.

    Example: Chen Gong should probably have as many Command stars as Lu Bu. But there's no way that just because Chen Gong's bodyguard was "hand-selected" means his immediate retainers (and him personally) should be thrown forward in a cavalry charge the way Lu Bu should. Xu Shu should have 6 or 7 Command stars, but should spend the battle sitting behind his lines, not hand-to-hand.

    As it stands now, having 3 General's Bodyguard units in the field beats having 1 General's Bodyguard unit regardless of whether those 3 are actually civil officers with a combined 1 Command star. There has to be some way to fix this, otherwise the human player can just lump crappy disposable Generals together to create awesome heavy cavalry armies.

    I trust that the modders can come up with something approximating a good solution.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Quote Originally Posted by mischadc View Post
    Because the bodyguard unit represents that leader's physical presence in combat.
    No, they don't. Our system is very different than vanilla and other M2 mods. Each leader has a "Strength" trait that is the direct influence over a leader's physical presence in combat. The higher the Strength trait, the higher the leader's Hit Points and combat ability of bodyguards.

    Yes, leaders have Command ratings that give better or worse morale and other effects on other units. But that doesn't accurately cover the actual combat role of an individual, which is what some leaders -- Xu Zhu, Dian Wei, Zhao Yun saving Liu Bei's kid -- were famed for. This is very different from command skill. In some cases it overlaps (Zhao Yun), in others it really doesn't.
    Command Stars mean relatively little in this mod. As far as actual command and effectiveness of troops on the battlefield, each leader has individual Leadership, Attack, and Defense traits. As stated above, the Strength trait covers the combat role of the individual leader.

    As it stands now, having 3 General's Bodyguard units in the field beats having 1 General's Bodyguard unit regardless of whether those 3 are actually civil officers with a combined 1 Command star. There has to be some way to fix this, otherwise the human player can just lump crappy disposable Generals together to create awesome heavy cavalry armies.
    As I said in my previous post, a bodyguard unit's skill is mostly dependent upon the soldiers that make up the bodyguard unit. The leader's traits have some effect on the bodyguard's ability to fight, but those effects are minimal, as it should be. Lu Bu's bodyguards are not clones of Lu Bu himself, they are merely good soldiers that protect him, just like every other leader.

    As far as "crappy generals" you are missing two key points. First, a general with poor Leadership, Attack, and Defense traits will perform poorly, with their army, on the battlefield. Second, a general with a poor Strength trait will have a weaker bodyguards unit and the general himself will be more easily killed.
    Last edited by Seether; August 21, 2013 at 12:00 PM.
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  9. #49

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Agree to disagree then, I'll just keep dragging my civil officers into combat for the sake of having Bodyguard units at my disposal.

    Keep up the good work -- the beta is more playable than most finished mods!

  10. #50

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Seether i was reading a general can only have a max of 10 hitpoints added by traits and ancillaries any more has no extra effect. Do you know if this is true or not?

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    I've never heard of this, actually, but doesn't mean that it isn't true. Do you have a link so I can do some research on it?
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    I was reading it on a third age total war thread regarding making heros stronger. I think KingKong the developer said that it couldnt be above 10. It might be true. I tested it on vanilla med 2 and gave someone a trait that added 50 hit points one that added 10. Then i fought with them against the same army both generals died realitively the same

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    I'll test as well and, if necessary, make some adjustments to traits.
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  14. #54
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    OP Updated:

    01 February Update

    It has been a long time since both my last official update and the last official patch. But, fear not! A new patch is on the way. Still no time frame, but I can confirm that we have A LOT of stuff already finished. Right now we are just waiting on a few things to be finished, then we can probably give a tentative release date. So, until the patch comes out, let me give you some insight into a couple of things you will see in this new patch.

    1) As has been mentioned in previews, the first part of our roster overhaul will be implemented. This specific overhaul is what we call the "standard" units; those coming in the Light, Heavy, and Armored variety. Not only will these new units have a variety of faces, armors, and weaponry, but will also have a variety of faces as well. For the Lights and Heavies, when their armor is upgraded via the Smith buildings, you will see changes to their armor in-game. For example, a Light unit with leather lamellar, when upgraded to iron lamellar, will now be equipped with such armor. As said, this is only the first stage of the overhaul process, but we are sure you will all appreciate it once the patch is available.

    2) In the next patch we will be introducing some new scripts. One particular script has to do with what was discussed in my last update: control of the Han emperor. While this script is not 100% complete, it is a fairly extensive script and allows you to make choices on how you ascend rank. The only reason I say it is not 100% complete is because there is more we would like to do, however we have to find workarounds of engine limitations. But even so, this script should still be considered a finished product, but if we can find those workarounds, it will be even more immersive and dynamic.

    3) A new "governor" system will also be implemented. Essentially, each settlement has an associated "governor" title that is given to a character that occupies the settlement. Depending on where the settlement falls in the system of Han administrative organization (commandery, county, etc.), it will dictate the title (Grand Administrator, Prefect, Magistrate, etc.) and bonuses of the specific "governor" title. All will be represented by ancillaries, that are able to be transferred between characters. There will not be provincial titles (ie: Governor of Yi province), as that type of system is extremely complicated. However, it is planned for a future patch, just not this next one.

    That is it for now. As I said, the next patch is nearing completion, but we do not yet have a time frame for release (so don't ask). And there is a lot more stuff in the upcoming patch that what I mentioned above. As always, if you have any questions/comments/concerns, feel free to post them here and I will do my best to answer them.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    I can't wait to see the update!

    Count me as "excited!"

  16. #56

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    This sounds fantastic. Really enjoying playing through at the minute.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Meh, time to reinstall M2...

  18. #58

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    what about the economy issue?

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    What specific economy issue are you asking about? Unit costs? Settlement Income? Expenditures? Income from vassals?
    Last edited by Seether; February 12, 2014 at 05:21 PM.
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  20. #60

    Default Re: Seether's Gameplay Notes

    Hi! I've got a few questions and some minor suggestions as well.

    Questions
    • I've been searching around a lot using the search-engine for some kind of explanation regarding potential and so on. It seems to work differently for generals than it does for admirals. It seems as if when an admirals potential reduces, he's able to gain another command star through increased riverine combat. However I have not noticed any difference in for example 'Leadership', 'Strength' etc. when it comes to my generals. Which makes me wonder if even is a way to improve these traits(that is 'Leadership', 'Acumen' and 'Strength') or if they are firm base stats for a general. Otherwise potential seem to be spent on the ability to command different types of units(cavalry, infantry etc.), for example Chengdu has a building which supposedly improves infantry command. Does a change from let's say 'Basic' to 'Adept' require a potential point?
    • What effect does academies, great schools and imperial college have besides the law bonus as well as the conversion multiplier? Since there doesn't seem to be any vanilla traits and ancillaries, I'm guessing they don't have the same character-evolvement purpose like in vanilla RTW and M2TW.
    • I asked this in another thread, but realised later on that this seem to be the right place to ask this question. Am I, as the Liu clan, depending on the Sun clans survival for the mission series to continue, given that Zhuge Liangs 'Longzhong plan'(spelling?) states that I'm supposed to ally with them. Will eliminating the Sun clan result in consequences for the mission series or am I able to simply wipe them out without any problem?


    Suggestions
    • Assassins. Honestly I do realise their historical value and that they were a present threat. However I feel that it takes a lot out of the mod with the use of assassins. This mod is generally based around certain characters and their stories/journeys. Playing with these characters is very interesting and for me, who like a degree of role-playing, I try to use them as historically as possible(based on their biography-trait, since I really do not have any real knowledge about this part of the world during this era). Since playing with these characters is what I mostly look forward to when getting new historical characters(through completing the wonderful mission-series made for the Liu clan), I get a real "turn-off" when I see that the characters die through assassinations. I feel so turned off that I, in fact, exit the game the desktop and restart it from my last save the previous turn. This however is a tedious task as well as it is to clean out 4-5 assassins every 3-4 turns. I do recognize that people think differently and some even like the assassination-aspect of the game. I'm not sure which mod, I want to say that it was Call of Warhammer, which used a dialog-screen in the beginning of the campaign which gave the choice whether to enable/disable assassins in the game. Something of the sort should be implemented in the future since not only is the assassination percentage too low for human-player assassins to be of any real impact. I had a 10(14 when calculated) subterfuge assassin, try to target an enemy general only to see that the highest percentage I could find(despite being alone and in the open) was 13% of success. The AI however spams assassins and will from time to time luck out, to my personal frustration.
      So in short: My suggestion is to add said choice to enable/disable assassins.
    • I read somewhere that a person is unable to become allied with a faction despite not being in war with their ally or vice versa. I believe this could be fixed through the use of a script that were used in TATW, where I believe the script worked in a way that it would nullify all relations and diplomatic agreements(including the state of being at war) with eliminated factions, thus removing the problem of "being ally with a dead faction which was at war with a living faction".


    I realise that many of my suggestions would take time and asking for permission to use scripts and whatnot, some of them might not even be possible. Other than these and some few minor things this mod feels pretty much complete in comparison to other mods. That this is supposedly a beta-version baffles me to the extent of drooling amazement in the wait for the final product! A wonderful and beautiful mod that gives a great insight to this period and place. If this mod keeps up on this course, the full version will be nothing short of a masterpiece!

    I humbly thank you for this mod and I curse you for the hours it will keep me from doing more important stuff!
    /A-Woowie.Doowie

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