Unit has worse stats in export_descr_unit, but performs better in game??

[kyfohatl]

So I was just having a look at the export_descr_unit file to compare some unit stats. I noticed that interestingly, moria halberds (heavy goblin halberds for OOTMM) have almost identical stats except slightly lower armour and attack when compared to gundabad halberds. Furthermore, goblin units get a higher racial penalty than orcs, so goblins in general are slightly weaker than orcs. Yet, on the battlefield, moria halberds undoubtedly perform better, as I have found after using both many many times. So how is it possible that despite lower stats, they are slightly better than gundabad halberds?

p.s. I'm running MOS, not sure if that matters though.

[riuk881]

do the goblins have anything different other than the stats? like ap or spearwall or better stamina?

[kyfohatl]

do the goblins have anything different other than the stats? like ap or spearwall or better stamina?

Here, I'll post the stats for you:
Heavy goblin halberds

type             Moria Halberddictionary       Moria_Halberd      ; Moria Halberdcategory         infantryclass            heavyvoice_type       Heavybanner faction   main_infantrybanner holy      crusadesoldier          moria_halberd, 100, 0, 1.5officer          orcsmm_captain_early_flagofficer          orcsmm_captain_early_flagmount_effect     horse +5, camel +5, elephant -4attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unitformation        1.5, 1.5, 3.0, 3.0, 5, square, phalanxstat_health      1, 0stat_pri         6, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 120, 1 ; attack 5 - 1 orc + 1 impetstat_pri_attr    apstat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1stat_sec_attr    nostat_pri_armour  7, 4, 0, metal ; splint ; defense 4 - 1 orc - 1 impet + 1 agilitystat_sec_armour  0, 0, fleshstat_heat        13stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0stat_mental      10, impetuous, untrainedstat_charge_dist 6stat_fire_delay  0stat_food        60, 300stat_cost        2, 350, 150, 75, 75, 390, 4, 100armour_ug_levels 3, 4armour_ug_models moria_halberd, moria_halberd_upgownership        hreera 0            hreera 1            hreera 2            hrerecruit_priority_offset    8 

Gundabad halberds

type             Orc Halberddictionary       Orc_Halberd      ; Orc Halberdcategory         infantryclass            heavyvoice_type       Heavybanner faction   main_infantrybanner holy      crusadesoldier          orc_halberd, 100, 0, 1.6officer             angmar_captain_early_flagofficer             orcsmm_captainmount_effect     horse +5, camel +5, elephant -4attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unitformation        1.5, 1.5, 3.0, 3.0, 5, square, phalanxstat_health      1, 0stat_pri         7, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 120, 1 ; attack 5 - 1 orc + 1 impetstat_pri_attr    apstat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1stat_sec_attr    nostat_pri_armour  8, 4, 0, metal ; splint ; defense 4 - 1 orc - 1 impet + 1 agilitystat_sec_armour  0, 0, fleshstat_heat        13stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0stat_mental      10, impetuous, untrainedstat_charge_dist 6stat_fire_delay  0stat_food        60, 300stat_cost        2, 350, 150, 75, 75, 390, 4, 100armour_ug_levels 2, 3armour_ug_models orc_halberd, orc_halberd_upgownership        portugalera 0            portugalera 1            portugalera 2            portugalrecruit_priority_offset    5 

As far as I can tell they have identical stats and characteristics (ap and etc) except that goblins have slightly lower stat_pri and stat_pri_armour... but then I am a noob so I'm probably overlooking something

[kyfohatl]

Sorry I messed up; used the wrong tags, and I can't edit my damn posts. Here's a repost of the stats:

Heavy goblin halberds

type             Moria Halberddictionary       Moria_Halberd      ; Moria Halberd
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_infantry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          moria_halberd, 100, 0, 1.5
officer          orcsmm_captain_early_flag
officer          orcsmm_captain_early_flag
mount_effect     horse +5, camel +5, elephant -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation        1.5, 1.5, 3.0, 3.0, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         6, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 120, 1 ; attack 5 - 1 orc + 1 impet
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  7, 4, 0, metal ; splint ; defense 4 - 1 orc - 1 impet + 1 agility
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        13
stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0
stat_mental      10, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 350, 150, 75, 75, 390, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models moria_halberd, moria_halberd_upg
ownership        hre
era 0            hre
era 1            hre
era 2            hre
recruit_priority_offset    8

Gundabad halberds

type             Orc Halberd
dictionary       Orc_Halberd      ; Orc Halberd
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Heavy
banner faction   main_infantry
banner holy      crusade
soldier          orc_halberd, 100, 0, 1.6
officer	         angmar_captain_early_flag
officer	         orcsmm_captain
mount_effect     horse +5, camel +5, elephant -4
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit
formation        1.5, 1.5, 3.0, 3.0, 5, square, phalanx
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         7, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, axe, 120, 1 ; attack 5 - 1 orc + 1 impet
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  8, 4, 0, metal ; splint ; defense 4 - 1 orc - 1 impet + 1 agility
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        13
stat_ground      0, -2, 1, 0
stat_mental      10, impetuous, untrained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        2, 350, 150, 75, 75, 390, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 2, 3
armour_ug_models orc_halberd, orc_halberd_upg
ownership        portugal
era 0            portugal
era 1            portugal
era 2            portugal
recruit_priority_offset    5

[muller227]

Check the animation of combat, I am betting you will note that the Moria guys do a lot more stabbing, this is a quicker attack than slashing. An easy test would be in the soldier line, change orc_halberd to moria_halberd. If that doesn't change anything change the unit density, this stat does weird things when you mess with it. It is also in the soldier line 1.5 and 1.6, my guess is the attack animation set though. The Goblin have a new one particular to them, the orcs rely on the older MTW2_halberd, an abundance of stabbing motion with AP is pretty damned effective, Rhun Halberd are another example of this. Change them to a Normal Halberd attack and they are far less devastating.

[kyfohatl]

probably because in MOS the Golbin Halberd is 252 while the Gundabad is 202. I could be wrong though...

No that's mordor's uruk halberds. Gundabad Halberds are also 252

Check the animation of combat, I am betting you will note that the Moria guys do a lot more stabbing, this is a quicker attack than slashing. An easy test would be in the soldier line, change orc_halberd to moria_halberd. If that doesn't change anything change the unit density, this stat does weird things when you mess with it. It is also in the soldier line 1.5 and 1.6, my guess is the attack animation set though. The Goblin have a new one particular to them, the orcs rely on the older MTW2_halberd, an abundance of stabbing motion with AP is pretty damned effective, Rhun Halberd are another example of this. Change them to a Normal Halberd attack and they are far less devastating.

ahhhh you're right... I noticed that goblins don't do any slash attacks at all, just stab. Awesome, I will play around with this and see if I can make gundabad halberds as powerful as moria halberds, this way gundabad orcs won't suck as much anymore (especially with the annoying MOS snow troll nerf). Thanks

[LuckyPistol]

probably because in MOS the Golbin Halberd is 252 while the Gundabad is 202. I could be wrong though...

[kyfohatl]

yep... it worked.

[muller227]

cool, slight correction to my above post, it is the AUM Rhun Halberd unit that uses the faster pike attacks combined with AP and Halberd stats, not the Vanilla unit.

[DrDragun]

What version of the game is this? I show Gundabad halberds at 5+3 attack and 5+2+0 defense while Moria halberds are 6+3 attack and 7+3+0 defense. The stats you listed sound like Mordor halberds.

[darkdog_13]

Does anyone know if there a animation for pikes that is just stabbing.
Uruk-hai pikemen are a great unit but they seem to love to use there pikes as clubs almost as much as they do as a spear. While it is funny to watch them use a 18 foot spear as a club it does get old.

[kyfohatl]

cool, slight correction to my above post, it is the AUM Rhun Halberd unit that uses the faster pike attacks combined with AP and Halberd stats, not the Vanilla unit.

I think I know which unit you are referring to... the "loke-gamp rim" right? Because as I have tested many many times on custom battles, they seem to be the strongest infantry unit in the game. Dragon-slayers, winged swordsmen, swan knights, top tier elven swordsmen, olog-hai... so far non of them have managed to beat these guys. The fact that they get a great bonus vs cav is the cherry on top

What version of the game is this? I show Gundabad halberds at 5+3 attack and 5+2+0 defense while Moria halberds are 6+3 attack and 7+3+0 defense. The stats you listed sound like Mordor halberds.

Are you running MOS?

Does anyone know if there a animation for pikes that is just stabbing.
Uruk-hai pikemen are a great unit but they seem to love to use there pikes as clubs almost as much as they do as a spear. While it is funny to watch them use a 18 foot spear as a club it does get old.

As far as I can tell Dunland's noble pikemen (if you have MOS) and loke-gamp rim of Rhun both only stab and do not use overhead attacks. So if you do what muller suggested, and replace the soldier line for uruk hai pikes with the soldier line from one of these guys it should work

[darkdog_13]

Loke-gamp rim are sick not only do they destroy everything in game but they do it while only taking a dozen or so deaths and those are all pretty much from the enemy charge. 10 attack+Ap+cav bonus and a proper attack animation is just pure evil.

Thank you i tried it and it worked perfect the only problem is these guys are amazing at killing everything with the default animation vs gondor infantry they killed 25 before routing with the animation from Loke-gamp rim they killed all of the gondor infantry and only lost 60 men. In reality i guess it makes sense trying to attack someone with a 24-36 inch sword who is wielding a 10-25 foot spear would be very hard especially when you factor its not one on one combat you have 50 or so of them spear in your face so even if you got though the first line the guy behind him could still stab you with his spear.

[muller227]

the problem is the attack is not realistic at all. Simple analogy, take a nail set it in a board, then thrust at it with a hammer as hard as you can, pretty ridiculous right. Then take the hammer and swing it normally. gravity and the combined rotational acceleration of joints involved in the swing amplify the force of the impact. I can set a nail with single swing in a normal framing, if I was thrusting, well everyone would have just laughed at me. In MOS they have combined the speed of the thrusting attack of a pike with the attack scores of a halberd and the ap attribute, it is devastating. You will never find such a mistake in Stainless Steel. In fact the pike has historically been ineffective against heavy armored infantry, relying on push not killing, the two handed sword was used to smack a killing path through the pike forest so that infantry could get to them, Romans relied on terrain and maneuver, while their shielded infantry met the push. Either way once among a pike formation, they dominated them, the very close order of battle greatly hindered CQ combat, even if they managed drop the pike and get their personal weapon out. straight ahead without penetration of the pike line they are pretty good, properly scored MOS does a very good recreation of real history, in the proper terrain. Add AP and the effect of the force of a weighted swung weapon and crap gets weird.

[kraxmause]

the problem is the attack is not realistic at all. Simple analogy, take a nail set it in a board, then thrust at it with a hammer as hard as you can, pretty ridiculous right. Then take the hammer and swing it normally. gravity and the combined rotational acceleration of joints involved in the swing amplify the force of the impact. I can set a nail with single swing in a normal framing, if I was thrusting, well everyone would have just laughed at me.

So you're saying it would be more realistic if pike formations started swinging their pikes around instead of thrusting with the pointy end?

[muller227]

So you're saying it would be more realistic if pike formations started swinging their pikes around instead of thrusting with the pointy end?

Not at all, I am saying combining AP with Swung weapon scores is wrong for pike formations, it was a thrusting weapon, therefore not AP. Swinging an 18 ft spear hell the unit would come apart from beating the hell out of each other, let alone just how damn tiring that would be, torque works both ways.

[Ngugi]

But if to remove the AP value, then it's really no working as a halberd unit any more, as what put the weapon apart from a spear or pike is that it was [also] intended to take on armour.
The limitations of the engine, where soldiers don't follow up an attack with the spear point edge with the spike [that could penetrate plate armour], or axe [for blunt trauma against lesser armour], against armoured foes, should not mean that those features of the arm is ignored?

[muller227]

But if to remove the AP value, then it's really no working as a halberd unit any more, as what put the weapon apart from a spear or pike is that it was [also] intended to take on armour.
The limitations of the engine, where soldiers don't follow up an attack with the spear point edge with the spike [that could penetrate plate armour], or axe [for blunt trauma against lesser armour], against armoured foes, should not mean that those features of the arm is ignored?

The Loke Halberd unit uses RC scores for combat in conjunction with the rhunpi animation, this is a pike animation with lots of fast thrusting attacks. I actually changed them to a Halberd animation. Making it a much more realistic unit that both thrusts and swings as you say. It is still a very good unit, but attacks with halberd animation, to go along with halberd RC scores. Uruk Pikes had the opposite problem, pike scores, with the slower Halberd animation making them much less effective, especially since they have the long pike attribute. I do not remove the AP scores or change them at all, that only makes them a second pike unit. I changed the animation to actually match the Halberd weapon and scores. I did the same thing with Uruk Pikemen, I gave them a true pike animation, so they have a fast thrusting attack which has an immensely long striking distance compared to other weapons. These striking distances are set in the descr_skeleton.text file

[Ngugi]

The Loke Halberd unit uses RC scores for combat in conjunction with the rhunpi animation, this is a pike animation with lots of fast thrusting attacks. I actually changed them to a Halberd animation. Making it a much more realistic unit that both thrusts and swings as you say. It is still a very good unit, but attacks with halberd animation, to go along with halberd RC scores. Uruk Pikes had the opposite problem, pike scores, with the slower Halberd animation making them much less effective, especially since they have the long pike attribute. I do not remove the AP scores or change them at all, that only makes them a second pike unit. I changed the animation to actually match the Halberd weapon and scores. I did the same thing with Uruk Pikemen, I gave them a true pike animation, so they have a fast thrusting attack which has an immensely long striking distance compared to other weapons. These striking distances are set in the descr_skeleton.text file

Thanks for input, will keep that in mind

[Steward Denethor II]

Um, I thought we weren't talking about halbarads. I thought he was saying the pikes are OP. Anyways they definitely are very much overpowered in my opinion, pikes should not beat Elven Heavy Swordsmen.