Templar/Hospitaller Foot Knights and other Heavies

[MDCCLXXVI]

So someone give me the dirt on the Templar/Hospitaller Foot Knights.

In SS 6.3:

I thought the Hospitaller Foot Knights were superior to the Heavy Swordsmen, but after doing a few tests, the Hospitallers come up short against them.


And despite people saying they're better than the Templars Foot Knights, I've found in tests that the Hospitallers also get schooled by the Templars.


Templars seem to beat the Heavy Swordsmen though.


In terms of H2H combat abilities:

Templars > Heavy Swordsmen > Hospitallers



Yet I've been told that the Hospitallers > Templars.


Anyone got some general info on how they are used best, your preferences/likes/dislikes?



cheers

[Aeratus]

Templars and Hospitallers are about the same. Templar has +2 attack, while Hospitallers have +2 defense. +2 attack might have an edge over +2 defense, but I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference.

http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...t_Knights.html
http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...t_Knights.html

[Kaiser Nonsense]

Note that Templars will never rout, whilst Hospitallers will never get tired in battle.

[MDCCLXXVI]

edit double post

[MDCCLXXVI]

Note that Templars will never rout, whilst Hospitallers will never get tired in battle.

Interesting, I had no idea.

Thank you.


So am I accurate in saying Templars have a locked morale stat, and Hospitallers have locked stamina stat? Or is it your opinion?

Templars and Hospitallers are about the same. Templar has +2 attack, while Hospitallers have +2 defense. +2 attack might have an edge over +2 defense, but I wouldn't expect there to be a significant difference.

http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...t_Knights.html
http://www.stainless-steel-mod.com/j...t_Knights.html

Thank you for the links, however I can see that info on the unit cards.

I am looking for info that isn't otherwise given, like the gent above informed me


...

It seems then that, if you're fighting infantry/western factions that the Templars are better (+2 attack > +2 defense vs. heavy inf). But if you're fighting primarily eastern/archer factions, the Hospitaller may be better, as they have more defense vs. arrows and due to presumably locked stamina stat, you dont have to think twice about sprinting them a long distance to close the gap between archers and them.

Do either get a desert combat bonus (compared to knights in europe)? It would at least make sense if the Templars had desert bonus vs. western troops, due to their home fighting environment being desert/Outremer. Maybe a better way to phrase it is that I believe at least the Templars knights shouldn't have the Heat penalty.




Which do you prefer? Currently offered both.

[Aeratus]

Looking in descr_unit (SS 6.4, however), it appears that the two units differ in the following way, in addition to attack/defense:

Templar: stat_mental 18, impetuous, highly_trained, lock_morale ; FANATIC
Hospitaller: stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained

Hospitaller also has +1 "stat_heat," meaning that they get tired slightly more quickly in deserts. All other stats are identical.

I suppose the templar is better in combat due to the morale lock.

The terrain modifiers for both units are identical (stat_ground 0, -2, 2, -1) (for scrub; sand; forest; snow).

[MDCCLXXVI]

Looking in descr_unit, it appears that the two units differ in the following way, in addition to attack/defense:

Templar: stat_mental 18, impetuous, highly_trained, lock_morale ; FANATIC
Hospitaller: stat_mental 18, disciplined, highly_trained

Hospitaller also has +1 "stat_heat," meaning that they get tired slightly more quickly in deserts. All other stats are identical.

I suppose the templar is better in combat due to the morale lock.

Almost wish i didnt accept the St. Johns guild offer in my current CS campaign ... Inferior H2H, heat penalty AND lower morale ... I suppose as long as you're okay with the Templars occasionally charging without orders, that they are the better warriors?

I want to like the Hospitallers, give me some reasons to favor them over the Templars

[Earl of_Duke]

The Health Bonus their order buildings give makes up for the minor differences of their warriors, IMO. I always go for Hospitaliers over Templars.

[Aeratus]

That's a good point. The health bonus can be helpful in SS 6.4 to create your own citadels. However, it is less important in 6.3, where population growth is much higher.

I don't think the morale lock is that big of a deal, except maybe in some specific situations. If you're losing the battle so badly that a unit with morale 18 is routing, then you've lost the battle regardless of whether it routs or fights to the last man.

Additionally, Hospitallers have better unit skins.

[poisoned goat]

Templars fighting to the death are really useful when your battle line is incredibly stretched and there's no generals. I have seen Hospitallers rout (usually the mounted variety), although those were rare occurrences and I was screwed anyway.

[MDCCLXXVI]

Templars fighting to the death are really useful when your battle line is incredibly stretched and there's no generals. I have seen Hospitallers rout (usually the mounted variety), although those were rare occurrences and I was screwed anyway.

My take:

Hospitaller mounted knights > Templar mounted knights

due to the discipline

Its incredibly annoying to maneuver cavalry in a complex battle, and have them not obey commands. I'd hazard to say more of them could get killed due to charging at the wrong moment.

Templar foot knights > Hospitaller foot knights

Due to the fact they won't rout and are superior H2H against others in their class. Good for holding a gatehouse while the rest of your men are in the city square, to slow/tire the enemy and get a few more kills with the towers/flaming oil.

So IMO

If you want the Guild Cavalry, get the Hospitallers.

If you want the Guild Infantry, get the Templars.

[poisoned goat]

I have never had any problems controlling poorly-disciplined units. If you are only interested in combat efficiency and don't want the public health bonus of the Hospitaller chapter house, Templars are way superior because +2 attack is much better than +2 defense skill.

[MDCCLXXVI]

I have never had any problems controlling poorly-disciplined units. If you are only interested in combat efficiency and don't want the public health bonus of the Hospitaller chapter house, Templars are way superior because +2 attack is much better than +2 defense skill.

Unless you're facing Eastern/Skirmisher/Archer factions, then the +2 defense comes in handy

[Aeratus]

Actually, the +2 defense doesn't help against archers and skirmishers. The +2 defense is in the form of defense skill, rather than armor or shield. Defense skill is only good against melee, and is irrelevant against missiles.

Also, the +2 attack is better because units in SS have insane defense ratings (at the extreme, the Polish guard has 5 attack and 30 defense). For example, something with 4 attack and 20 defense will usually beat something with 3 attack and 21 defense.

[King Gambrinus]

Do Templars rout in Crusaders expansion pack? Never really noticed but that would make Jerusalem OP'd on a different level!

[Aeratus]

That's interesting. Didn't know that fanatic had an effect on stats.

Do Templars rout in Crusaders expansion pack? Never really noticed but that would make Jerusalem OP'd on a different level!

They do rout. The only units that are unroutable in the official games are the Great Cross and the Italian standard-guards, but neither unit really had much combat potential.

[MDCCLXXVI]

That's interesting. Didn't know that fanatic had an effect on stats.


They do rout. The only units that are unroutable in the official games are the Great Cross and the Italian standard-guards, but neither unit really had much combat potential.

I find the Great Cross unit to be handy. They are pushing a big piece of wood that is effective for "plugging" holes in walls, gates, and bridges. I've also used them on siege offense a few times as CS. I push them right up to the enemy wall as im assaulting it with some cheap infantry (ie light men at arms). Really benefits their morale as they take the wall, tiring out the enemy before my elite infantry move in.

I believe its a benefit if you have a stack of cheap units that you want to buff with a morale boost.

[Point Blank]

Templar 'fanatic' gives +2 attack, but also -3 defence.