Different unit types

[Killzone_040]

Hello everyone,
seeing I got confused a little bit as to which unit does what I decided to ask other peoples' opinions and thoughts on the matter.

I'm quite interested to know to what degree you can influence your advantage over your opponent (SP and MP) by merely controlling the engagement in such a way, you always have the troop type to counter whatever can be thrown at you.

AFAIK swordsmen have a tendency to do rather well as line infantry (I seem to have read they get a bonus vs spear-wielding units, is this actually true?), as well as having great flanking potential. I guess AP infantry* is part of this "package", seeing they'll also do well against any heavily armoured units.
* As a rule of thumb, anything wielding an axe or longsword (or stated in unit descr.) can more often than not be considered AP ?

If everything in the above alinea is correct, the confusion starts here;
Spearmen apparently get negative bonuses when they're fighting swordsmen, so having them in your front ranks probably isn't the best idea. Do the Macedonian-style phalanxes follow this trend, or do they still get a negative bonus when they're up against a sword-wielding unit ?
Same question goes for the units fighting in a hoplite-like manner; I used to believe they'd be excellent at holding the line in an engagement, but I guess I'll have to reconsider that if they are also affected by the same negative bonus ?

TLDR
Basically, all of that really comes down to some questions (thought I'd at least take the time to write a text):
Are swordsmen (in essence, every situation is different) the best lineholders/flankers?
What to do with spear-wielding units?
- Only to be used in cavalry engagements?
Do hoplites/phalangites suffer the same negative bonuses other spear-wielding units do?


Thanks in advance!

[Frtigern]

You have to differentiate between spear wielding units. You have light spear which covers the majority of spearmen with regular sized spears. Then you have long pike phalanx units who carried sarissas. But then you have a lot more little differences like heavy spearmen which are light spear class but are heavily armored, highly trained and dense spearmen. Light spearmen like your levy spearmen are only good at holding off other levy spearmen and light cavalry. On the flipside light swordsmen with no armor are no good against heavy spearmen from the front. If the spearmen are elite, they will hold swordsmen of equal class (heavy swordsmen) until most of their men are dead, they are flanked and their general is dead. Not all spearmen are strictly spearmen. The heavy spearmen without javelins carry swords sometime AP which makes them dual purpose. They can be spearmen to hold off cavalry but change to swordsmen when engaged with swords. So study each primary and secondary weapon attributes closely to find what you are looking for. Pay attention to lethality, charge, defense, discipline, training, and mass.

[Killzone_040]

I guess there are still a ton of variables other than unit type that determines the outcome of an engagement.
So, if I differentiate between spear-wielding troops, do hoplites suffer the same penalty against sword-wielding troops as your average phalanx (underhand spears) ?
And if so, do hoplites have the same bonus against cavalry-attacks?

[Boriak]

The important thing to note is that units in EB are not so rock-paper-scissors-lizzard-spock as they were in Vanilla RTW. Some units seem good for something but they end up being really disappointing. In my early days, I used Hellenic Heavy Peltasts as line troops in a siege and was utterly disappointed with their performance. Now I know they are one of the more versatile and flexible units and can be battle winners if used properly.

I used to think Caetrati are crap because they have low armour. Yet these guys once took apart a unit of Triarii - problem was I owned the Triarii in that game. Why? Both javelin and falcata are armour-piercing.

Iberian Heavy Cavalry looks awesome but they are really not worth the money. Everything you can achieve with them, you can achieve more easily with Medium Iberian Cavalry for half the price.

Bottom line: there's no simple rule in EB what unit is good against another. That's Vanilla RTW thinking; if you want to play EB, it's time for a paradigm shift.

[Killzone_040]

I definately noticed that during my playtime. I suppose the information given for each unit is a nice way to get familiar with how a unit was/should be used and from there it's trial and error to see what units excel in which situation =).

[Boriak]

I definately noticed that during my playtime. I suppose the information given for each unit is a nice way to get familiar with how a unit was/should be used and from there it's trial and error to see what units excel in which situation =).

Unless I play with Romani, my front is usually spearmen, simply because it's historially accurate and because most infantry is spear based. Swordsmen, if I have any, go to the wings so they can be used for potential flanking.

With Romani, things are different. Their front is always composed of swordsmen. Though I am tempted to change that, I tend to use a historically accurate deployment.

I have a specific deployment style for Carthage and Koinon Hellenon. They have a similar roster, infantry hoplite based with possibility of using a Macedonian style phalanx (I only use those phalanxes against enemies who actually use phalanxes extensively). Since Carthage learned how to fight from its enemies (Greeks at first, then Romans), I will modify my tactics according to the year and location. I'm doing the same in my Greek campaign as Romans are one of the most prominent foes. Essentially, both Carthage and Greeks start with typical Greek deployment but with time I will make the battle line more dependent on swordsmen and even use gaps in the units to mimic Roman tactics. Also, both Carthage and Greeks tend to have more medium and heavy cavalry than Romans.

[Kirila the Kitten]

I am trying to mod EB's EDU for a mod, just for turn-recuitment and prices but it seems that some other stats must be changed too...
So do you suggest me to give more power to the Iberian Heavy Cavalry or to take some power away from the Medium one?

[Frtigern]

I guess there are still a ton of variables other than unit type that determines the outcome of an engagement.
So, if I differentiate between spear-wielding troops, do hoplites suffer the same penalty against sword-wielding troops as your average phalanx (underhand spears) ?
And if so, do hoplites have the same bonus against cavalry-attacks?

Hoplitai are good against most infantry in the game. They will suffer against phalangitai though, and their dense formation makes them at risk of being flanked. So always keep your hoplitai supported by other troops. Hoplitai have 23 defense, 14 attack, disciplined and highly trained. Capable line troops. Your Samnitici Milites have 23 defense, 10 attack, impetuous and highly trained, but they have an AP sword which has a bonus against armor, so they are dangerous to your hoplites. However, even your armored spearmen-killer Samnites, Iberians, Lusotannans, and Thracians will have a hard time getting at Klerouchoi Phalangitai, with their long spears. You will have an even harder time killing Chaonion Agema as they have 26 defense and 19 attack. But like hoplites they are no good when flanked.

[Killzone_040]

Hoplitai are good against most infantry in the game. They will suffer against phalangitai though, and their dense formation makes them at risk of being flanked. So always keep your hoplitai supported by other troops. Hoplitai have 23 defense, 14 attack, disciplined and highly trained. Capable line troops. Your Samnitici Milites have 23 defense, 10 attack, impetuous and highly trained, but they have an AP sword which has a bonus against armor, so they are dangerous to your hoplites. However, even your armored spearmen-killer Samnites, Iberians, Lusotannans, and Thracians will have a hard time getting at Klerouchoi Phalangitai, with their long spears. You will have an even harder time killing Chaonion Agema as they have 26 defense and 19 attack. But like hoplites they are no good when flanked.

That's very interesting, as I used to always put hoplitai on the flanks of my line troops (be it romans or phalangitai) I probably won't do that too often anymore. I suppose they were originally meant to be a force used in your main line, even in ancient times, seems logical to use them as such.
You've been very helpful and you've received some +rep !

[BroskiDerpman]

Spam phalangite, put them in an enclosed shape overlapping each other, grab some popcorn+watch an movie, return an hour later. You've won the battle m'lord, sheer tactical genius!

O.K anyways, I combine shock cavalry/super heavy cav along with horse archers. My infantry is usually something along the lines of phalangites. Then I use some elite infantry on the flanks along with some other infantry I've slapped together as reserve. When I bring archers/slings I bring an ton of them otherwise I don't unless if I feel like pouring flanking into the poor ai's troops: That's ai genocide.

Now go have some fun.

[Killzone_040]

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate the feedback that has been given!

There are some things I haven't been able to find out yet;
Do *all* of the spear-wielding units have a bonus against cav, or do the overhand ones (hoplites in particular) don't get any kind of bonus/penalty? And are AP abilities always described in the unit information, or are there other indicators to what units have this ability while in-game?
Milk and cookies for everyone!

[Frtigern]

http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.net/

and the Recruitment Viewer will help you discover all the various differences between units.

[Entropy Judge]

AFAIK swordsmen have a tendency to do rather well as line infantry (I seem to have read they get a bonus vs spear-wielding units, is this actually true?), as well as having great flanking potential. I guess AP infantry* is part of this "package", seeing they'll also do well against any heavily armoured units.
* As a rule of thumb, anything wielding an axe or longsword (or stated in unit descr.) can more often than not be considered AP ?

Axes and Blunt weapons can generally be trusted to be AP weapons; Longswords are not. Most Cavalry units' main weapon (Lance/Spear) are also AP, but not all of them.

Spearmen apparently get negative bonuses when they're fighting swordsmen, so having them in your front ranks probably isn't the best idea.

Yes and no. The penalty for "Light_Spear" is a -4 to Attack when facing infantry ... the problem is that if you look at the attack values, this means that they're usually still even with regards to Attack, and the Spearmen have better Defense.

Do the Macedonian-style phalanxes follow this trend, or do they still get a negative bonus when they're up against a sword-wielding unit ?

I do believe that Pike units do have Light_Spear.

Same question goes for the units fighting in a hoplite-like manner; I used to believe they'd be excellent at holding the line in an engagement, but I guess I'll have to reconsider that if they are also affected by the same negative bonus ?

The penalty doesn't matter that much, to be honest. Most spearmen are quite capable of holding a line against same-tier Swordsmen.

Basically, all of that really comes down to some questions (thought I'd at least take the time to write a text):
Are swordsmen (in essence, every situation is different) the best lineholders/flankers?

In general, I would say no. They can be - particularly if you're Roman - but Spearmen usually have better Defense and are a bit cheaper. It's honestly best to check the two units at the heimstatt website and compare them, if you're looking at choosing between the two. For example, Batacorii and Bataroas: The Batacorii are cheaper, have better Range with their Javelins and have an additional Javelin, and have higher Attack with their Spears. They also have slightly better Training and Morale. The Bataroas, on the other hand, have slightly better Defense and have better Lethality with their Swords compared to the Batacorii Spears. So what you'd want to do in this situation - unless money is no object - is to make the majority of your units Batacorii, since they're less expensive, while Bataroas are used as Shock units and Flankers to take advantage of the better Lethality and lessen the cost of using them.

What to do with spear-wielding units?

Keep using them.

Do hoplites/phalangites suffer the same negative bonuses other spear-wielding units do?

They do; I think there's one phalanx unit that didn't get switched to Light_Spear and still has Spear, but that just means he takes a Defense penalty instead of an Attack penalty.

Do *all* of the spear-wielding units have a bonus against cav, or do the overhand ones (hoplites in particular) don't get any kind of bonus/penalty?

The penalty is tied to the unit's Weapon Trait - you could give a Swordsman unit the "Light_Spear" or "Spear" trait and the engine would work for them! But anyway, so far as I know all Spear units have Light_Spear, barring one of the phalanx units.

[athanaric]

AFAIK swordsmen have a tendency to do rather well as line infantry (I seem to have read they get a bonus vs spear-wielding units, is this actually true?), as well as having great flanking potential. I guess AP infantry* is part of this "package", seeing they'll also do well against any heavily armoured units.

It's true that some of the most versatile units in EB are swordsmen or axemen. Especially Peltastai, Teceitos (Celtic Axemen), and Legionaries. However in general, spearmen are better as line infantry, and more historically accurate.

* As a rule of thumb, anything wielding an axe or longsword (or stated in unit descr.) can more often than not be considered AP ?

All falxes, kopeis (forward curved swords), axes, maces, clubs, and hammers are AP.

Do the Macedonian-style phalanxes follow this trend, or do they still get a negative bonus when they're up against a sword-wielding unit ?

No. They destroy any other unit type head on. That's why you flank them. Remember these units were specifically developed by Macedonia to hold the front line against superior heavy infantry. Hence their insane attack and shield values in EB, which were implemented to represent this (and also negate any attack "nerfs" against infantry). Their anti cavalry abilities are simply a nice side effect; they are too cumbersome to actively guard against or chase after cavalry (Hoplites are better at that).

Same question goes for the units fighting in a hoplite-like manner; I used to believe they'd be excellent at holding the line in an engagement, but I guess I'll have to reconsider that if they are also affected by the same negative bonus ?

Yes but their attack value has been increased to counteract that.

What to do with spear-wielding units?
- Only to be used in cavalry engagements?

No, spearmen are very flexible in EB, depending on the unit. Some factions have spearmen that can be used offensively. Sweboz in particular have very fast spearmen with high attack, defense, and charge values, and heavy javelins to use against infantry. They'll destroy most light infantry head on, although I wouldn't recommend using them against legionaries that way. There are even three barbarian spearmen units that frighten enemy infantry and are very dangerous to most infantry, although they lack armour.
Some of the heavy spearmen types, in particular Thorakitai (Hellenistic heavy spearmen), Scortamareva (Lusitanian heavy spearmen), and Mori Gaesum (Helveti spear phalanx), are just excellent all round units which are especially effective against cavalry, but can be used against everything.

Do hoplites/phalangites suffer the same negative bonuses other spear-wielding units do?

Yes, but it doesn't matter (see above).


The most spearmen heavy factions (not counting pikes) are Koinon Hellenon, Sweboz, and Saba, so if you want the maximum variety of spearmen, you should try them.

BTW pikemen are insanely powerful in autoresolve, so if you don't feel like fighting every battle yourself, just recruit a full stack of Chaonion Agema and you can "roflstomp" anything on the map.

[Killzone_040]

Thanks for the advice, both EJ and athanaric.
Now that I've ran out of questions to ask, all I can do now is say thank you; All of the people here have been incredibly helpful and you've all received some +rep for that!

[Killzone_040]

Sincere apologies for double-posting in this thread, I know it is technically not allowed. On the other hand, I didn't want to post in a 2year old topic (and possibly receive some remarks about that ) so I decided I might as well do it here as it is sort of topic-related.

Is there anyone that has gotten to the marian reforms - or has knowledge of - that would be able to tell me what units they used for what roles (I told you I'd be able to incorporate the question in the topic!) in the army of the SPQR.
I've done a search through the different topic/fora (regarding Antesignani) and I get some conflicting answers. According to some, and the unit info, they seem to be a replacement for the leves/velites in the earlier roman legion. According to a person who, as far as my interpretation-skills go, has been involved in the making of EB, they replace the extraordinarii. These units were used for special operations, flanking, assaulting cities and the likes. These are 2 very different 'theories' and, as far as my 'knowledge' goes, these roles were all (mainly?) filled by the auxiliaries. I would think of it as a waste to not use antesignani while they would still be in my factional roster.

A second question arises when I think about Cohors Evocata. They were the experienced veterans choosing for a carreer within the military and, as such, didn't have to help during the 'bad' jobs that had to be carried out daily by your average legionnaire. I can't imagine they'd just be put in the front ranks either, due to them being such a valuable force, funded by the general himself. I can't imagine them being used as flankers, because surely a soldier of such standing doesn't have to run all the way around the enemy army.
Could they best be depicted as being one of your cohorts in the reserve line, thus basically swapping a reformed cohort with a veteran cohort?

As you can see, I'm lost as to what to do with these units. If I'm entirely wrong with my (uhum) theories, let me know. If you've gotten to the marian reforms I'd like to hear your advice and if you have information that you'd like to share, by all means do !

[Boriak]

My Roman campaign is stuck on 194 BC so no, I didn't see the Marians yet.

[Killzone_040]

That's a pity, I've encountered 2 CTD's so far in my campaign, both around 225BC. I did manage to work around it though, and some alternate saves just to be sure .
You couldn't be bothered starting all over again I suppose?

[Boriak]

Nope, I'll rather wait for Novus Ordo Mundi and enjoy the Marians there.