Greeks elephants in Italy?

[omji]

Hi and sorry if it has already been posted. I tried to search but didnt find a post related to this.

Yesterday I have installed RTR platinium, I have played the romans, and after 2 turns I am attacked by a stack of the greek cities. In this stack i was more than surprised to find Asian elephants! I am not a specialist of the warfare and armies in 200 BC. But are you sure:
- Greek cities used elephants at that time?
- Greeks brought elephants in the south of Italy? I thought Hannibal was the first to bring Elephants in Italy...
- How come they can recruit elephants when none of their cities produce them?
- How come Bactrians dont have elephants???

Now phalanxes are running like bunnies! As fast as hastatis. I think its not normal. Even if they are not in close formation, their equiment was heavyer, no?

Gauls still dont have charriots. They used charriots in their warfare...

Those are my few comments for now. Hope this will be fixed!

Thanks for the team of RTR for their awesome job!

[boofhead]

Yeah, Pyrrhus had elephants in Italy at the time the game starts.

See http://www.mainlesson.com/display.ph...2d433761ef40d2

From memory he landed with 26.

Oh, and taking them out with phalanxes is extremely costly.

Use velites or other skirmishers and they will turn them into giant squealing pincushions! :tooth:

[evil-SHADOW]

Yeah, Pyrrhus had elephants in Italy at the time the game starts.

See http://www.mainlesson.com/display.ph...2d433761ef40d2

From memory he landed with 26.

But where he had taken them from?

[boofhead]

But where he had taken them from?

According to

http://nabataea.net/elephants.html

they were Indian, but don't ask me where he got his evidence from.

Pyrrhus would have had access to them via the Diadochii (esp.Seleucids), but the Greeks had a history of relations with Nth. Africa going back some 300yrs or more.

[evil-SHADOW]

According to

http://nabataea.net/elephants.html

they were Indian, but don't ask me where he got his evidence from.

Pyrrhus would have had access to them via the Diadochii (esp.Seleucids), but the Greeks had a history of relations with Nth. Africa going back some 300yrs or more.

OK let's omit the question where he had taken them from...

But another question still needs to be anwered. There are mercenary Asian Elephants (rtr_merc_elephants) recruitable in Epirus, Aetolia and Athamania.

These regions were inhabited with elephants in 3 century BC?

[imb39]

The Romans had never seen elephants before and were, understandably, terrified. Ausculum, I think, was their first encounter. They tried sneding in burning pigs - that didn't work (it ws grossly esagerated in R:TW) and they developed some oxcarts with long spears and other things. This, again, did not work - the oxen were too slow. Why oxen and not horse? I presume it was to do with the fact that horses get spooked very easily by pachyderms.

[Cheexsta]

IIRC, Pyrrhus got his elephants from the Ptolemies who had trafficked them from India. The mercs in Epirus represent elephants that can be bought not necessarily from that region, but brought there from elsewhere.

So no, they weren't exactly breeding elephants in Epirus as far as I'm aware.

[evil-SHADOW]

IIRC, Pyrrhus got his elephants from the Ptolemies who had trafficked them from India. The mercs in Epirus represent elephants that can be bought not necessarily from that region, but brought there from elsewhere.

So no, they weren't exactly breeding elephants in Epirus as far as I'm aware.

But mercenary elephants are breeding in these regions! The game says they do

[olly]

The Macedonians had loads of elephants from Alexanders days, the even used to roam free around Pella.

RTR has lots of mercs in areas they are not native to, like around Carthage and the Nile, to enable factrions to field historically accurate armies with out having to send generals all over the map on shopping trips. I think its a great feature especially for Carthage so you can have well balanced and historical armies.

[Baron von Beer]

So some slickster has set up his own foreign luxury dealership that focuses on the sale of only the best rides in the area. At a premium price over the less flashy domestic models of course.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

Hi and sorry if it has already been posted. I tried to search but didnt find a post related to this.

Yesterday I have installed RTR platinium, I have played the romans, and after 2 turns I am attacked by a stack of the greek cities. In this stack i was more than surprised to find Asian elephants! I am not a specialist of the warfare and armies in 200 BC. But are you sure:
- Greek cities used elephants at that time?
- Greeks brought elephants in the south of Italy? I thought Hannibal was the first to bring Elephants in Italy...
- How come they can recruit elephants when none of their cities produce them?
- How come Bactrians dont have elephants???

Now phalanxes are running like bunnies! As fast as hastatis. I think its not normal. Even if they are not in close formation, their equiment was heavyer, no?

Gauls still dont have charriots. They used charriots in their warfare...

Those are my few comments for now. Hope this will be fixed!

Thanks for the team of RTR for their awesome job!

Greek general Phyrrus did indeed have elephants in south Italy, question already answered.

Phalanxes in 280 BC could indeed move fast compared to earlier ones used at Marathon and Thermopylae in 480 BC, due to lighter body armour. Not solid bronze anymore, but linen or leather. However, their armour and shield was still heavier than that of a Roman hastati.

The chariot was already starting to fall out of favour with the Gauls in 280 BC. By Ceasar's time, they were mainly used by chieftans as TRANSPORT to and from the battle, but the chief would dismount before the battle started, and fight on foot with his men. Unless he was a horseman, in which case he'd fight with the cavalry. Chariots were at a disadvantage compared to cavalry as they were far harder to turn than a horse with a single rider. Also, against steady infantry like the Romans, they weren't much use against the enemy battle line either. And they are a bit slower than cavalry also, horses pulling a chariot are slower than ones with a single rider.

Only the more traditional Britons still used chariots for fighting by 1 AD.

[Siddyus]

Well, The Mauryan Empire are said to have given thousands of elephants to the Seleucids. Then maybe the Seleucids provided their fellow Greek allies with these said elephants. Based on what ive read in Wikipedia. *nods*

[dharos]

Yes asiatic elephants by Phyrrus is accurate. Stop arguing with people that obviously know their history. Secondly, unless you're an utter buffoon, you will notice that elephants are recruitable in Southern Greece only very rarely, and they are mercs, so there is nothing bizarre about that.

[Antiochus the Great]

No need in arguing over historical fact. If you don't think the elephants in Phyrrus's army are historically accurate then just do some simple research by searching the Battle of Asculum on google and you will find the wiki version of events as well as a rundown of the army composition of each side. Battle of Asculum occured in 279 BC which explains them having elephants at the start of the game.

[Cheexsta]

Phalanxes in 280 BC could indeed move fast compared to earlier ones used at Marathon and Thermopylae in 480 BC, due to lighter body armour. Not solid bronze anymore, but linen or leather. However, their armour and shield was still heavier than that of a Roman hastati.

Might just clarify: the phalanxes referred to here are the hoplite phalanxes, rather than the Macedonian phalanxes. It wasn't very easy for a Macedonian phalanx to run in formation, what with carrying big sticks and all :wink: But the hoplites certainly were quite mobile.

Also, one question I noticed that has gone unanswered: Bactrians don't get elephants because they (mistakenly) don't have access to the upper-tier stable buildings. This is a bug that I believe has been rectified in RTRPE.

[Keravnos]

Post Alexander the Great, and especially after winning against Poros at Hydaspes, Elephants became cherished in Armies, much like armor is today, and the armies who didn't have them faced both ridicule and annihilation. In fact elephant corps had become the New model army of the time. Seleykeians got theirs from India. The Ptolemaics couldn't possibly do the same, so they needed an elephant "source". They found one, using Tree elephants (African elefants a foot smaller than Indian ones) in present day somalia, which they promptly explored and colonized its shores.

Its name was Troglodytiki, (Troglodytes = A member of a fabulous or prehistoric race of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes. by answers.com), and its capital was Filotera. "founded by Satyr when he was sent hunting elephants in Troglodytiki" (Strabo,16,4-5)

Ptolemaics used those elephants to win the battle of Rafia in 217 against the Seleykeids.

Ptolemaics also tried to use the larger elephant jumbo variety we all know and love, but they couldn't be tamed.

source. Frank W. Walbank, The Hellenistic World, ed. 1981

For more on this,
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...18#post1181518

Other than that, Bactria was in present day afghanistan. No elephants there. If you wanted some you would need to deal with the Indians.

[boofhead]

Just started a campaign as the Greek Cities. Was broke after 1 turn and decided to send Pyrrhus' elephants on pretty much suicide missions in order to get rid of them - they are SO expensive.

Result: They almost single-handedly smashed all opposition in Rhegium & Messana. They are still there but now I have enough income to stay out of the red!