Should Orcs be no longer allowed to gain Respect?

[Steward Denethor II]

Okay I am just starting this poll because to me it seems awfully strange that orcs are allowed to get traits like Just, Fair in Rule, Kind Ruler, Respects the Enemy, etc. That does not seem orcish to me at all. I personally think that orcs should not be allowed to get Chivalry, like the Natives in the Americas Campaign. Maybe population growth should be made a bit easier, to compensate for orcs inability to have governors increase population without anti squalor traits.

Additionally perhaps evil men should start out with a bit of base dread, by giving all of them a hidden trait which increases their dread, so Chivalry is harder for them but not impossible. They are ruled by Sauron after all. I personally would only have it two or maybe one dread point.

I would like to hear your opinions though.

[Mank]

The concept would be pretty simple to implement and I think its a very good idea. There are already certain traits prohibited for heroes (such a legolas), and there is no reason why orcs and other evil factions couldn't be prohibited from aquiring "good" traits.

I'll throw an edited character_traits file together with these basic changes and post it in the sub-forum.

[Wizad]

You should realize that this means that Orcs can no longer be useful governors. It would be cool if Orc governors gained direct -squalor and +income traits instead of getting chivalry to make up for it.

[thespaniard]

yeas orcs repopulated very fast so give them bonuses int hat regard to make up for the loss in respect

[Mank]

what do you guys think about this:

-5-10% across the board orc/ evil faction tax bonus to make up for the lost chivalry/ kind ruler monies
-1 or 2 starting dread for all baddies

Also:
I can't think of a direct way of boosting the building growth through traits, so that's kinda tough...

@Wizad: Do you really think they should get a decrease to squalor, I would think that a higher chance of that is in-keeping with the fact that they are orcs/ evil. (Thinking of how in the books the orcs pretty much wiped themselves out at Cirith Ungol).

[DrBeast]

I've made a few changes to my EDCT to prevent Orcs (for the most part) and other Generals with Dread (to a lesser extent) from gaining Respect traits, so yeah, I agree that Orcs should focus on maxing their Dread.

[CatoTheYounger]

Nazgul and Orcs should be revamped. Chivlarous? no. Evil faction men should have a chance at chivalry as most were just worshiping Sauon as god on earth

[DrBeast]

Yeah, fighting Adunaphel the Quiet the Honourable sounds kinda anti-climactic, doesn't it?

[Loki_999]

Of course Orcs can have respect. The orc commander who keeps his troops alive would gain respect. The orc who can eat 10 human babies for breakfast and still have room to wash them down with a jug of blood would have respect.

Respect depends on your point of view.

While playing as an evil faction i tend to avoid training respect generals and go all out to get fear traits, but i don't see a problem with an orc having the respect of its fellows.

[Steward Denethor II]

Of course Orcs can have respect. The orc commander who keeps his troops alive would gain respect. The orc who can eat 10 human babies for breakfast and still have room to wash them down with a jug of blood would have respect.

Respect depends on your point of view.

While playing as an evil faction i tend to avoid training respect generals and go all out to get fear traits, but i don't see a problem with an orc having the respect of its fellows.

You bring up a good point, but do Orcs get respect among their warriors by releasing prisoners and occupying towns? I doubt it, rather, the orcs will view their commander who does this as weak and pathetic! Eating prisoners alive and cutting them up and sacking their towns and raping their wives will cause an orc general to be respected among his men. But one who does all that should have full dread. I personally think respect should have been called Honour anyways.

[Lord Butters I]

You bring up a good point, but do Orcs get respect among their warriors by releasing prisoners and occupying towns? I doubt it

Here's where we run into the problem of being constrained within a hardcoded game engine.

I think the break from immersion of orcs getting respect traits from doing un-orky things is less bad than the break from immersion of orcs only ever having dread.

[LuckyPistol]

I see where this idea is coming from, but I'd be in support of it from only a lore/orc psychology point of view, rather than gameplay. Orcs shouldn't be used as governors in the first place as they gain all the worst traits on their own, so there's no reason why not allowing them "respect" would be harmful to gameplay.

Personally, I think the current system should be kept, as its simpler to gain/lose dread to each person's liking

[Bowmaster]

No, Orcs shouldn't get Chivalrous: It it in the very senses of the Orcs to rape, slaughter, sack and exterminate. If an Orc would be kind, then his forces would revolt against him and pick a new, "better" General/Captain.

Though I'm not saying that it should be removed completely from the Men of the East, but it should be harder for them. It shouldn't be impossible that an Easterling or Haradrim would be kind and Respected.

@Loki999: Respect is mainly gained from Traits such as Kind, Fair in Rule, or Respects the Enemy. So yes, it would be stupid for Orcs to have Chivalry.

[Flinn]

that's a tricky point

even if I councur that for lore reasons the orcs shouldn't get respect-related traits or anchillaries, there should be some sort of balance for polupation growth at least with some other exclusive trait or specific building for orchis factions, or they can start with more obedience or get it faster, which somehow will compensate with some extra money, making some of their generals to be good to be selected as potential governors.

on the other hand, I think evil men should be kept as they are, with the possibility to have also some high respect generals, for lore and balance reasons.

[DrBeast]

...there should be some sort of balance for polupation growth at least with some other exclusive trait or specific building for orchis factions, or they can start with more obedience or get it faster, which somehow will compensate with some extra money, making some of their generals to be good to be selected as potential governors.

While not Orc-specific, changing the EDCT so they gain PublicFaith instead of StrategyChivalry whenever a Shrine/Temple of Melkor is built will kill those two birds with one stone.

This is what it looks like in my game:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_church

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PublicFaith  1  Chance  25 
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  5 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

and also

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic_c
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_chapel

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PublicFaith  1  Chance  25 
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  5 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

[Flinn]

looks interesting, but this won't be related to Orcs only; would it be extended to evil factions only in this way ?

maybe making a completely new type of building, still I don't even know if and in which extent this is possible
just to understand, thanks

[DrBeast]

Yes, it would apply to all the factions that build Melkor-worshipping buildings - Orcs, Rhun and Harad. There might be a way to make it Orc-specific, but I'm not sure what condition should be added to the trigger. Maybe separate triggers for the Orc and evil human factions:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For the evil humans:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_church
      and not FactionType england
      and not FactionType france
      and not FactionType hre

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects StrategyChivalry  1  Chance  50
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  10 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

Castle:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic_c
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_chapel
      and not FactionType england
      and not FactionType france
      and not FactionType hre

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects StrategyChivalry  1  Chance  50
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  10 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

For the Orcs:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic_orcs
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_church
      and not FactionType spain
      and not FactionType venice

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PublicFaith  1  Chance  50 
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  5 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

and for their castles:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Trigger building_religion_catholic_c_orcs
    WhenToTest GovernorBuildingCompleted

    Condition SettlementBuildingFinished >= small_chapel
      and not FactionType spain
      and not FactionType venice

    Affects ReligiousActivity  1  Chance  100 
    Affects PublicFaith  1  Chance  50 
    Affects Upright  1  Chance  5 
    Affects GoodBuilder  1  Chance  25

[Flinn]

well thanks for the explanation

In any case if someone will make a minimod I'm available to test it, I'm interested in this particular aspect.