Modelling with newer 3ds Max versions and the problems

[rattenfleisch42]

After several failed attempts to edit the models, I have realized that I need to ask for help.
I've read a dozen tutorials and countless threads, but couldn't really find a solution to my problem - if there was one, it was only touched like "link vertices to the bones".

As far as I know, newer 3ds Max versions have problems with the .cas-converter scr!pt (yeah, really, this forum doesn't let me write "scr!pt" out. Apparently, "r!p" is somehow a forbidden word, causing this error message as I try to submit the thread: "Post denied. New posts are limited by number of URLs it may contain and checked if it doesn't contain forbidden words." - Oh, yeah. I would have created this thread days ago but figuring this out took some time. At first I though it was pelvis, then anything else. But "(sc)r!p(t)"... I don't get it. Is it a bug? Can someone enlighten me on this one? I would say "bone" is more offensive...).
I'm using a trial version of 3ds Max 2011 at the moment and have some issues that aren't addressed in the average tutorial.

I import a .cas file and export it immediately without changing anything and the game says

Mesh Body must have the skin modifier at the top of the stack. If it is static then it must have a bone as it's parent

If I use it anyway, the game tells me (the same with "shield" and "secondary weapon"):

Material index on rigid:

primary weapon

is greater than number of materials

If I proceed, the soldier is invisible but his weapons are there. Makes sense according to the error message...


That means I have to link the model to the bones, right?


Yeah, I know, linking everything to the pelvis bone isn't the solution, because I get this:


I have found some old threads where people were roughly hinting about what I have to do, but I still don't get it. Sometimes even the language gets in the way (the only English version of 3ds Max I can get today is 2014, so I'm stuck with my 2011 German trial. Even when people use the correct terms for the options, the translation can be a bit different... and I'm not even talking about abbreviations.).

Can someone help me? A fixed scr!pt file, a small tutorial, anything? Please?

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

OK, what you're doing wrong is pretty straightforward: firstly, the body itself must have a skin modifier added to it. What the jargon is in German is unknown to me, though I'd guess you want to find "Haut"? in which case I'd guess you need to hit the "h" key, till you find it. once you got it, there are tutorials on doing it (just translate as best you can).

and you should be on your way, as beyond that, you got the idea right.

[rattenfleisch42]

OK, what you're doing wrong is pretty straightforward: firstly, the body itself must have a skin modifier added to it. What the jargon is in German is unknown to me, though I'd guess you want to find "Haut"? in which case I'd guess you need to hit the "h" key, till you find it. once you got it, there are tutorials on doing it (just translate as best you can).

and you should be on your way, as beyond that, you got the idea right.

Thanks for your help. As far as I can see (the picture below, it's about weighting but you can see the modifiers on the right and skin/"Haut" is on the top of the stack), the skin modifier is already there and on top of the stack... right?

I couldn't find any tutorial here or on tw.org that went into detail about the skin modifier, so I'm not sure whether I got it right or not.

Long time since I did any of this but it should still work. See here.

Thank you, your tutorial helped me to find the proper buttons.
But now that I had a look at it, it seems that when I import the file, everything is properly weighted. Seems to be the case, right?



To me it seems that the weighting is properly imported, so there is no need to do it again, right? That means it doesn't get exported...
I'm so confused... most threads deal with older versions of 3ds Max and it seems things were easier when the scr!pt was still fully compatible.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

Thanks for your help. As far as I can see (the picture below, it's about weighting but you can see the modifiers on the right and skin/"Haut" is on the top of the stack), the skin modifier is already there and on top of the stack... right?

yep--that's the skin modifier. I see you had the weight table on for the vertices, and that they are already weighted (whether to the right bones or not, I cannot tell from here: I'd have to have the model.)

As to the skin not exporting: it should have been exported with the model automatically. As long as you do everything right, the version matters little. I'm currently using 3dsmax 2012, and it exports just fine. the only way I can see it not exporting is if you had the UVmap above it, or the editable_mesh on top when you exported it, and did not fix the problem and re-export it. In that case, importing it later would lead to either improper loading of the skin modifier, or the absence of one altogether.

Having said that, if you are still having trouble after this, send me the models, and if I have the time, I can look at them for you.

[rattenfleisch42]

yep--that's the skin modifier. I see you had the weight table on for the vertices, and that they are already weighted (whether to the right bones or not, I cannot tell from here: I'd have to have the model.)

I'm not sure whether this means anything or not, but as you can see on the right, "bone_head" is selected and the vertices on the head are highlighted in red. So I assume the bone is connected to the right vertices.

As to the skin not exporting: it should have been exported with the model automatically. As long as you do everything right, the version matters little. I'm currently using 3dsmax 2012, and it exports just fine.

Well, I didn't change anything. The error occurs even when I import the model and export it immediately. Reading the old tutorials, I get the impression that people could just import the model, swap weapons and export it again and it would work. Searching for my error message, I've found threads where some members said newer versions of 3ds Max have those problems because the scr!pt (seriously, why is this word forbidden? Using an exclamation mark in place of the "i" makes me feel like an idiot...) is not fully compatible.

the only way I can see it not exporting is if you had the UVmap above it, or the editable_mesh on top when you exported it, and did not fix the problem and re-export it. In that case, importing it later would lead to either improper loading of the skin modifier, or the absence of one altogether.

Whenever I import a model, the modifiers look exactly like that, I don't change anything. Do I have to add the UVmap and the editable_mesh and move them to the bottom? I've just tried it, but adding the UVmap causes the texture to be strangely distributed across the model.
Is the stack okay as it is? Maybe I have to add a "bone as it's parent" (as stated in the error message) to the skin modifier, but how do I do that?

Having said that, if you are still having trouble after this, send me the models, and if I have the time, I can look at them for you.

Thanks for the offer, but do you think that would make sense? As soon as I export the model it is destroyed (going down from 28 KB to 6 KB for example), so I fear the exported rubble would be of no use.

Hmmm... now that I think of it:
If I link the body to the pelvis bone (first post, second picture), the model gets exported with the full 28 KB. If I don't link the body to the pelvis bone, export it and import it again, the whole body is missing, leaving only shield, weapon and bones (that would explain the 6 KB). Does this information help you? If you need any information, you can tell me where I have to click and I can provide pictures of the settings.

A model is made of 4 basic parts which need to be connected. Bones+Mesh+vertices+skin. The mesh you don't need to worry about. The skin is connected to the bones by the vertices using the skin modifier. Each set of verticies need to e weighted to the correct bone. My tutorial explains how to do that.

As far as I can see in my screenshot, the vertices are weighted to the correct bone.
So... if the skin is connected to the bones by the vertices... could there be a problem with the mesh? I know you said I don't have to worry about the mesh, but I use a newer version of 3ds Max and the scr!pt may have some compatibility issues...

[Halie Satanus]

Long time since I did any of this but it should still work. See here.

[Halie Satanus]

A model is made of 4 basic parts which need to be connected. Bones+Mesh+vertices+skin. The mesh you don't need to worry about. The skin is connected to the bones by the vertices using the skin modifier. Each set of verticies need to e weighted to the correct bone. My tutorial explains how to do that. Attachments which do not need to animate in conjunction with more than one other element (or put simply,non body parts) ie; weapons/shields/*helmets do not need a skin modifier and can be attached directly to the correct bone (parent).

My tutorial doesn't use the weight table, I always found it better/easier to do it by eye...

*by helmets I mean ones separate from the head...

[Halie Satanus]

Bone weighting is a complex task, which, once you get your head around it is as simple as tying your shoelaces. My advice is don't keep beating you're head against the wall trying to fix it. Start again. As Gen said his version is 2012 and works fine, so yours probably does too.

[rattenfleisch42]

Bone weighting is a complex task, which, once you get your head around it is as simple as tying your shoelaces.

My English may be a bit difficult to understand because I'm not a native speaker, but please try to read my posts again. Look at the screenshots. The Bones are already weighted as far as I can see, or are they not?
The weighting gets imported properly, there is just some problem with exporting the model.

My advice is don't keep beating you're head against the wall trying to fix it. Start again.

Excuse me, I don't want to sound rude, but do you even read my posts? Where am I supposed to start?
I import a model, don't change >anything< and I receive an error message as soon as I am trying to export it.
I don't know how I can make a mistake as long as I do >nothing< except importing and exporting.

I can follow older tutorials to the letter (for example: import, delete a shield, export) and I always get the same error. I've tried to follow tutorials, but it just doesn't work for me.

That is exactly what I do: I import a random model from the AddOn Barbarian Invasion (any model, Barbarian Spearmen, Saxon Hearth Troops, doesn't matter), don't touch any option, I don't even hover my mouse above the model... and I export it again. No changes at all.
And it doesn't work. You can see the results above.
So could you please tell me what I'm doing wrong?

As Gen said his version is 2012 and works fine, so yours probably does too.

I've read several threads where people talked about the version. For some people it worked with earlier, but not with newer versions. I don't know anything about that, I can just refer to what they say. Some people say newer versions work fine, others say they don't.

But then there is the question what exactly people are doing with their version of 3ds Max. If you start a model from scratch with 3ds Max 2011, maybe it works. If you import a model but change most of it anyway so that the bug is solved somewhere along the way, it probably works as well. People who say it works for them are usually veterans. I don't know if they still bother with swapping weapons and shields or if they do more complex work. Maybe the solution to the problem is simple to them and part of the usual routine. I don't know.
What I do know is that older tutorials don't work for me. And that threads, where errors like mine are mentioned, are from users with a newer version. Hard to find threads like that from 2007 or so.

But as I said, I'm a newbie, I don't know anything about the source of the problem. Reinstalling 3ds Max or the .cas-importer/exporter (I've even downloaded it from several sources) doesn't work, so I think I can safely say that this is not the problem.

[Halie Satanus]

No worries, I was getting confused as the images would seem to indicate you made changes, linking everything to the pelvis as an example. BI models should work fine, Alexander models not at all, no explanation as to why, they just don't.

A couple of things you might try.

Turn off UAC, if you're using Win Vista/7 or higher not sure if that would be a problem in this case but it causes all kinds off problems when installing mods.

The issue is with your version of Max and compatibility with the import/export tool, it might solve the problem to reinstall Max in compatibility mode for an older version of windows. Though that shouldn't be a problem..

1. Right-click on the installer file (.exe file)
2. Select Properties then go to the Compatibility tab.
3. Put a check on the “Run this program in compatibility mode for” then select the previous OS which you think it worked.
4. Then under Privilege Level, place a check on “Run this program as administrator”
5. Click Apply then OK.

[rattenfleisch42]

No worries, I was getting confused as the images would seem to indicate you made changes, linking everything to the pelvis as an example.

Well, I made changes, but only after the error occurred, attempting to fix it.
The error occurs when I do nothing, I was just trying to find a way to fix it (like linking everything to the pelvis, which obviously didn't work).

A couple of things you might try.

Turn off UAC, if you're using Win Vista/7 or higher not sure if that would be a problem in this case but it causes all kinds off problems when installing mods.

The issue is with your version of Max and compatibility with the import/export tool, it might solve the problem to reinstall Max in compatibility mode for an older version of windows. Though that shouldn't be a problem..

Good idea, I was tempted to try it but then remembered my old PC which has still Windows XP on. I assume that trying it on a real XP is better than trying compatibility mode, which works with some programs but not with others.

But sadly, it doesn't work on Windows XP either, same error message there.


By the way, I've even tried 3ds Max 2014... where I get this problem:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-Warped-Models

So... 2014 twists the model, 2011 doesn't export it properly... and 2012 is supposed to work? A shame that I can't find it anywhere.
And I only have 20 days of 3ds Max 2011 left...


Back to the error message: "Mesh Body must have the skin modifier at the top of the stack. If it is static then it must have a bone as it's parent"
The skin modifier is at the top of the stack, right (see the screenshot in post #4)? Do I need to add any other modifiers or is that enough?
The body isn't static (like a shield), so it doesn't need to have a bone as it's parent, right?
If I just export it, the body gets lost. If I link the body to the pelvis and export it, the body is there but the weighting is completely lost. Is that normal?
Where is the problem? Does the error occur during import or export? Or both? Is there any way to pin this down?

[Halie Satanus]

Good idea, I was tempted to try it but then remembered my old PC which has still Windows XP on. I assume that trying it on a real XP is better than trying compatibility mode, which works with some programs but not with others.

But sadly, it doesn't work on Windows XP either, same error message there.

hmm, that is odd, since it's the export tool that would be incompatible not the version of Max..

"Mesh Body must have the skin modifier at the top of the stack. If it is static then it must have a bone as it's parent"

This I've seen before, you'll laugh when I tell you what it was.

At some point I had made a copy of the body and it was positioned in the exact same place as the original. Took me awhile to spot it and was very frustrating.

Check you haven't done that..

If I just export it, the body gets lost.

Not sure what you mean.. You mean in the nodes view (I can't recall the proper name), yeh, nodes disappear when the verticles are weighted to a bone.

If I link the body to the pelvis and export it, the body is there but the weighting is completely lost. Is that normal?

Yes. Because you've connected all the verticles to the skeleton and they're just stuck to one bone and only move when that bones animates.

Where is the problem? Does the error occur during import or export? Or both? Is there any way to pin this down?

Hmm, other than me coming round your house, not that doesn't require perseverance.

Did you try turning off the UAC? That does effect programs that make changes to your computer, and is a possible culprit.

[rattenfleisch42]

At some point I had made a copy of the body and it was positioned in the exact same place as the original. Took me awhile to spot it and was very frustrating.

Check you haven't done that..

Checked.
I've once thought that some leftovers from previously loaded models are causing the problem... so I've restarted 3ds Max and just imported and exported, the usual procedure. Didn't work.

Not sure what you mean.. You mean in the nodes view (I can't recall the proper name), yeh, nodes disappear when the verticles are weighted to a bone.

I mean the body mesh itself disappears.
If I import a model and export it immediately without doing anything, the size of the file is drastically reduced (for example from 28 KB to 6 KB). If I now import that 6 KB file there are only bones, weapon and shield left. The body itself is lost if I don't stick it to a bone.
Somehow the exporter doesn't recognize that the body mesh belongs to the file and discards it.

Did you try turning off the UAC? That does effect programs that make changes to your computer, and is a possible culprit.

Considering the amount of problems that UAC causes, deactivating it is one of the first things I do after reinstalling Windows 7. ;-)
On top of that, Windows XP doesn't even have UAC and it doesn't work there either.


By the way, thank you again for trying to figure this out.

[Halie Satanus]

I'm kind of stumped then. Plenty of people have started modeling and used recent versions of Max, but something is wrong somewhere. I suggest you hunt down an older version. I have 8 and never had any issues with it.

Hmm, same problem..

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...+export+models

[rattenfleisch42]

I'm kind of stumped then. Plenty of people have started modeling and used recent versions of Max, but something is wrong somewhere. I suggest you hunt down an older version. I have 8 and never had any issues with it.

I've searched the internet as good as I could. 2014 is the oldest I could find (on the official website).
So, no place to download it, no place to buy an old version.

I even know two guys who can get pretty much everything. So I've asked them to have a look. Neither of them could find anything relevant (I think they've found 2013 or so, not sure).

I'm quite hopeless right now...

Hmm, same problem..

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...+export+models

Yeah, it seems that from now on, there is no way to get into modeling if you don't already have a suitable version.

[Halie Satanus]

You could get hold of milkshape. I don't know much about it myself as I understand you can model in milkshape and export to Gmax (which is free) and then convert to .cas..

That was just a cursory look, I think there's a lot more info on modelling in milkshape and converting. Worth looking into if you can't get hold of an older version of Max..

I found Max 2011 for £19.95.. You might spend £20 doughnuts on a version that still won't work though...

I also put up links for free photoshop.

[rattenfleisch42]

You could get hold of milkshape. I don't know much about it myself as I understand you can model in milkshape and export to Gmax (which is free) and then convert to .cas..

I've read a bit about that converter, but to me it seems it is just for editing the .ms3d files of milkshape with 3ds Max and Gmax.
I would still have to export them through 3ds Max, so that problem would still be there.

I found Max 2011 for £19.95.. You might spend £20 doughnuts on a version that still won't work though...

Hmmm... that link doesn't work for me. But yeah, 2011 is too risky. I haven't read of anyone using it without problems. I've read a number of times that 2012 works for some people, but I couldn't find that one.
Considering that 2011 and 2014 bug out in completely different ways, it wouldn't surprise me if 2012 is just fine for everyone.



Such a shame. I've started my mod years ago and was afraid of modeling back then. Now that I want to finish it and decided to give it a try, I can't get it to work. I guess that I've missed my windows of opportunity in this case.

[Halie Satanus]

Depends what kind of mod you wanted to make, if it's just models then, yeh. Without a working version you're scuppered. But if it's period based there are tons of units around that can used. Judging from the use of BI I'm guessing late Roman.? The IBDF mods cover that whole period and are what's generally known as compilation mods.. There's a lot of work to do even without editing models....

[rattenfleisch42]

Depends what kind of mod you wanted to make, if it's just models then, yeh. Without a working version you're scuppered. But if it's period based there are tons of units around that can used. Judging from the use of BI I'm guessing late Roman.? The IBDF mods cover that whole period and are what's generally known as compilation mods.. There's a lot of work to do even without editing models....

I don't want new models, I only wanted to repair the regular BI models. I prefer my games to be vanilla, but Barbarian Invasion is just so hilariously bad that it hurts.
The Western Roman Bodyguard uses the same area of the texture for both the spear tip and the edges of the shield. And as long as I am only able to edit the texture, he either has to use a blunt spear or floating spear tips on the edges of his shield. Romano-British Legionaries are missing a knee, the Germanic Chosen Archers have a weirdly distorted texture, the list goes on and on (these are only the bugs that I've noticed within the first hour or so of playing, which says a lot about the QA department for Barbarian Invasion... I guess there was none).
There is a bug fixing mod around, but it only mitigates those problems (preferring a blunt spear over a weird shield, using a lower LOD model of the Legionaries, etc.) instead of solving them.

Hmmm... maybe I should concentrate on the other aspects of the game (considering how messed up BI is, there are more than enough to keep me occupied, like the way religions are implemented) and hope that someone finds a solution to this.


But thank you for your help.

[Halie Satanus]

A'yup. The quality control for BI was poor, and yeh I've seen the archers with the messed up UV map.. Hmm, maybe you should consider changing the units...

Good luck..