Two questions about the Pilum.

[sanbourne]

1. How effective was the Pilum as a spear? Do we know if the legion will be able to use it as such in the game? Like in anti-cavalry formation?

2. What was the most common model? In other words, how would you portray them in the game? I was watching Rome (the HBO series) and I noticed the legionnaire's pilum didn't look like the ones I knew, with the big wood pyramid at the beggning of the iron part.

[Larkin]

1. The head was soft iron and would bend, so not very, if at all. I wouldn't be surprised for legionaries to have used it as a hasta type stabbing spear if they were unable to use them conventionally and were unable to use their gladius, but it wouldn't be that effective, especially not against cavalry due to their short length.

2. It varied as the army adapted. From what I understand the heavier model faded out as the empire "progressed" to be replaced with lighter more javelin-esque models by the time of the comitatenses.

[Richard III]

I always assumed it could be used as an emergency spear, but considering that it was designed to bend on impact, it wouldn't be good for much more then maybe bracing for an initial charge. Anyway, here's some stuff i dug up around the interwebz.

Source: http://romanmilitary.net/tools/pilum/

The Pilum (Spear)

When Swords wouldn't do, Roman soldiers relied on the pilum, which was a long spear, or javelin. There were two types: think and thin. The thin one had a long iron head, that fit to the long handle by way of a socket. The thin pilum was about 2 m long, with a barbed point. The thick pilum was of similar length, and was attached to the shaft with a 5 cm wide tang. The tip of both of these weapons had a pyramid-shaped barb. The shaft of both was about 7.5 mm in diameter. On the thick pilum was a wooden block to secure the metal head. The block also protected the hand in melee fighting. Soldiers carried both types of spear.
Later versions of the pilum in the first century were constructed similarly, but the thick pila were much lighter, weighing in at about 2kg. This lightening of thepilum led to the introduction of a version of the heavy pilum with a weighted ball at the top of the shaft, to help balance the spear. The point was made of softer iron so that it would bend upon impact, preventing the enemy from throwing the spear back.
The pilum could either be thrown, or used in hand to hand combat. It was usually thrown before engaging the enemy with swords.

[✠Ikaroqx✠]

It probably would have been entirely useless against heavy cavalry like Persian cataphracts. Until the 4th century the Romans had no way to combat heavy cavalry. Pila were designed to be thrown into massed enemy ranks, not braced against an enemy charge.

[sanbourne]

Thanks for the answers.

But I though the legions did use the Pilum as spears against cavalry, so it must have some effect...

[Richard III]

Like Cohort said - it could probably be used against light to medium calvalry in a pinch. But chariots and cataphracts probably destroyed the pila before they could even have an effect.

[[N2]Kami]

When the lines joined, Labienus ordered the cavalry to attack; as expected they successfully pushed back Caesar's cavalry until his hidden fourth line joined in, using their pila to thrust at Pompey's cavalry and turn them to flight. After this, Caesar ordered his six cohorts from his left flank to attack the flank of Pompey's army, the battle was more or less decided.

So I think it's lethal to use against light cavalry. Not sure about heavier one though

[✠Ikaroqx✠]

I suppose the Romans used spear armed auxiliaries for their anti heavy cavalry purposes.

[sanbourne]

I suppose the Romans used spear armed auxiliaries for their anti heavy cavalry purposes.

I wonder if the legions (or part of it) would just pick a spear instead a pilum when they knew they are going to fight heavy cavalry?

[Argon Viper]

I'd say we've heard enough to know that the cavalry bracing position CA showed in the early pictures could be accurate. It may not be a Hasta spear of a Hoplon or a Sarissa, but any kind of length is better than the .5 m or less of the gladius when facing cavalry.

As far as I know, the lighter javelins of the Comitatenses were more due to cost limitations (the empire was poorer then) than about effectiveness. Also, that's pretty far out of range for this game's timeframe, I'd say the weighted ball pila that were in use at the beginning of the Imperial era are about as far as it got.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

1. How effective was the Pilum as a spear? Do we know if the legion will be able to use it as such in the game? Like in anti-cavalry formation?

2. What was the most common model? In other words, how would you portray them in the game? I was watching Rome (the HBO series) and I noticed the legionnaire's pilum didn't look like the ones I knew, with the big wood pyramid at the beggning of the iron part.

1

Considering all the recent gameplay informations of the game , no historicity ,so roman legionaries will just be normal swordsmen with a launch of javelins

2

there are some different versions , but probably in game will all look the same .

[✠Ikaroqx✠]

Hehe good point.
'Crap man there's cataphracts headed right for us!'
'Well pick up that spear that's just lying conviently in front of you!'
'I can't!'
'What?'
'I have to throw my pila, the draw my Gladius. It's the rules! Plus I have no idea how to use a spear!'
'...'

[Furious Mental]

Well the trend in the later Roman era seems to have been for the javelin to become more like a spear that could be thrown e.g. the spiculum, the angon.