Pictures of Hindu Gods on elephants....

[General Maximus]

Greetings to the mod team,

First of all this is a great mod and I have been playing it since a long time, being a loyal fan ever since I got Medieval II. But, I do have something which I would like to point out.

I see that you guys have put the images of the Hindu Gods on the elephant's accessories, especially the side covers. They look good, but they look sillier than anything else in the whole mod or the game. Even looking at that pic makes me feel hilarious, humiliated, insulted, funny and god knows how many more emotions, all at the same time.

Here is one of the pics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So here the Hindu God Rama is depicted...that portrait, I can tell you, looks like it was designed and painted sometimes during the decade at best, and that image and similar images are commonly found over all calenders and diaries here in India. And to see it on an elephant is just....so silly. Elephants were not decorated with pictures of Gods, but mainly by complex designs, sometimes symetrical while sometimes not. But never with a person's picture. And certainly not with a picture that has been recently made

If Timurid army uses elephants, would those elephants carry a big portrait of Timur on their sides? If somehow the elephant came to be owned by Crusaders or the Romans, would the elephant carry the image of Jesus or Mary? In ancient times, did elephants carry the images of Hannibal or Seleucus? If the elephant, by any chance, came to USA, would you paint a picture of Obama on it and send it into battle?

So, this is a game breaking thing for me. I consulted a cousin of mine (who is an Indian history expert and plays TW games too) and he was surprised to see such a stupid graphic in such a great mod. It is keeping me from playing the mod. I request the mod team to make a realistic skin for the elephants' side covers, instead of pasting pictures on them. I hope you guys can do something, maybe release a new skin separately or with a new pack. But again, I beseech you, no...I beg you to change this. It is more anachronistic than anything I have ever seen in my whole life. Please, please do change it.

Note - Any non-Indian person who doesn't know about the Indian elephants and their equipment will not mind the pictures posted on them, but as an Indian myself I do know how utterly idiotic it looks.

[m_1512]

Hi, I am from the mod team working on Rajput Realism overhaul. I completely understand the frustration you feel. I had the same reaction about ETW's depiction of them. I assure you that your point is well taken and will include in my work. In fact, this will be one of the minor stuff I am going to propose to the entire team. My objective in the work is to overhaul Rajputs into a realistic, interesting, and dynamic factions which should be enjoyable to all audiences.

If the elephant, by any chance, came to USA, would you paint a picture of Obama on it and send it into battle?

It would be a terrific sensation! Democrats embracing Republican symbols.

[wudang_clown]

Thank you for your remark. We will change that.

If you have more suggestions, post them.

[General Maximus]

Thanks for the quick replies. I am eternally grateful to the Broken Crescent team now.

Although I would like to help, I am far more learned in the history of India from AD 1500 to 1947 than AD 1100 to 1500, so I cannot advice accurately. But just to point out, the letter 'Om' written on the shields of many Indian units is also like writing "Deus Lo Vult" on Crusader shields. Mostly it looks fine without any problems, although there might be slight possibility that such shields would be worn by only the nobility.

[m_1512]

Actually, I highly doubt if such a thing was even done. The very word "Om" is the sacred most word in the Hindu canon. I doubt if Rajputs, also known for their steadfast devotion and fanaticism, would commit such sacrilege such as holy symbols on shields, deity pictures on elephants, and daring to wear saffron to battle.

[General Maximus]

I agree. Most of the Indian shields (called Dhal) from that era are plain, with little decoration by paint. Most decoration was metalwork, to be precise. I doubt someone would paint such things on them. The shields I have seen from the era are actually round bucklers of mostly black or any other dark colour, with four metal (mainly gold or silver coloured) buttons arranged in the form of square near the center.

Most shields were like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And the common soldier's shield would look like this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Byzantineboy]

Very interresting thread; by the way, was there any hindu symbols on the battlefied?

[General Maximus]

Very interresting thread; by the way, was there any hindu symbols on the battlefied?

Nope. There were never such symbols on the battlefield painted on arms or equipment. The Rajputs mainly used complex designs on their shields and armour pieces. The noblemen used colourful shields with a very rich decoration (as shown in the first pic above), while the common soldiers used little to no decoration (the second pic above).

After Babur's invasion, these shields were taken up by the Muslim armies but remained the same. Richer Mughal warlords got colourful and richly designed shields (although with no Hindu-style theme) and used black or green colours for their corresponding arms, compared to red, saffron, blue and gold of the Hindus.

[m_1512]

Very interresting thread; by the way, was there any hindu symbols on the battlefied?

Nope. There were never such symbols on the battlefield painted on arms or equipment. The Rajputs mainly used complex designs on their shields and armour pieces. The noblemen used colourful shields with a very rich decoration (as shown in the first pic above), while the common soldiers used little to no decoration (the second pic above).

After Babur's invasion, these shields were taken up by the Muslim armies but remained the same. Richer Mughal warlords got colourful and richly designed shields (although with no Hindu-style theme) and used black or green colours for their corresponding arms, compared to red, saffron, blue and gold of the Hindus.

There were never any such symbols on the battlefields. Although fighting for the king and people was a noble duty, it was still killing i.e. taking away life. Hence, religious symbols or colors were avoided in battles.

The whole concept of faction colors is from games. To identify which troops are yours. Back then, it was done by looking for the standards each fighting unit carried.

[General Maximus]

There were never any such symbols on the battlefields. Although fighting for the king and people was a noble duty, it was still killing i.e. taking away life. Hence, religious symbols or colors were avoided in battles.

The whole concept of faction colors is from games. To identify which troops are yours. Back then, it was done by looking for the standards each fighting unit carried.

This. Killing, even in the name of your lord or master, was (and is still) considered a big unforgivable sin in Hinduism.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Personally as a non-Indian I do not mind the Hindu symbolism, I even find it refreshing and fun. The Rajputs were probably something of an afterthought. In any case, I expect most unit models are artistically inspired. I have personally failed to find any contemporary depictions of Khwarezmian warriors for example. Besides, I believe Constantine the Great painted the cross on his soldiers' shields or at least carried it into battle, the Crusaders took Holy Relics to battle, and the Muslims used the moon and crescent so why not Hindu gods for the Indians even if the style is a little modern?

There are stranger things in M2TW, flags that float above the men, men glued to their horses, nothing but palm trees grow in Palestine, etc.

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

Killing is "unforgivable" probably in most major religions. Therefore, no one would have gone to war, if they did not believe they had their god(s) on their side.

I could not find any Hindu warrior images on the internet relevant to the Broken Crescent period. The style of those shields in post 6 seems influenced by Islam, Mughal period, 16-17th C or later.

[m_1512]

Personally as a non-Indian I do not mind the Hindu symbolism, I even find it refreshing and fun. The Rajputs were probably something of an afterthought. In any case, I expect most unit models are artistically inspired. I have personally failed to find any contemporary depictions of Khwarezmian warriors for example. Besides, I believe Constantine the Great painted the cross on his soldiers' shields or at least carried it into battle, the Crusaders took Holy Relics to battle, and the Muslims used the moon and crescent so why not Hindu gods for the Indians even if the style is a little modern?

There are stranger things in M2TW, flags that float above the men, men glued to their horses, nothing but palm trees grow in Palestine, etc.

It is again the topic of sensibilities. Some take offense, some not so much. It's similar to the recent issues like people making jokes about religions and cultures. My best advice here to most people is to refrain from it and showing respect to other religions and cultures.

But at any rate, this is a miss from us and we have to rectify it.

This. Killing, even in the name of your lord or master, was (and is still) considered a big unforgivable sin in Hinduism.

Killing is "unforgivable" probably in most major religions. Therefore, no one would have gone to war, if they did not believe they had their god(s) on their side.

I could not find any Hindu warrior images on the internet relevant to the Broken Crescent period. The style of those shields in post 6 seems influenced by Islam, Mughal period, 16-17th C or later.

This is a complicated topic. I believe killing of innocents is what is an unforgivable sin since there is another Hindu tenet of not bearing atrocities. But enough of religious debate, its off topic.

And images are hard to find. Indians had not recorded their history in paper. And even of they had, it might have been destroyed in the many invasions. But there is sufficient knowledge alive in oral traditions.

[General Maximus]

I believe the last remaining parchments that described the military of 12th and 13th century India were destroyed in the Sack of Delhi in 1398.

There is Deadliest Warriors show, but they depict Rajputs very inaccurately with wrong pieces of armour. They even hired an East Asian person to wear that dress and play the Rajputs.

Mind you, I have been studying around and I have seen a lot of armour pieces from 12th century that are now in museums. I am about to visit Rajasthan (or Rajputana, the home of Rajputs) soon, maybe this year or the next, so I will try to find out as much info as I can about Rajput equipment, their shields and elephant covers. I will also take and show you some pics if I can too.

But one thing is for sure, religious symbols were not painted on shields or Howdahs (the pavilions on the elephants, on which archers should be placed).

[Geoffrey of Villehardouin]

I believe the last remaining parchments that described the military of 12th and 13th century India were destroyed in the Sack of Delhi in 1398.

Not many conquerors were book collectors, sadly. I understand that the Iranian language was facing extinction because of this kind of vandalism.

Photographs of anything related to 12-13th C Rajasthan would be fantastic, thank you. For most of us the nearest we will get to Rajasthan is on the Broken Crescent strat map.

[m_1512]

Either way, all this is definitely neither realistic, nor that much entertaining. Besides, it's a miss from my end coz I joined BC coz I wanted the mod to have realistic and exciting Rajputs gameplay. Also, I owe it to you to give you an accurate and enjoyable feel of Rajputs via the game.

Not many conquerors were book collectors, sadly.

It's something to do with the sadistic pleasure of destroying identities of the conquered.

[General Maximus]

Both Takshashila and Nalanda universities were sacked by Muslims, and both contained a lot of information about Indian military system, as a few surviving records (preserved by the Buddhists) indicate. Legend has it that when the great library of Nalanda was burned by Muslims, the fire raged on for three days. Another version even says three months, but I don't believe it. Takshashila even had military arts as a subject, so if only it had survived we could've got everything about armours, equipment, tactics, and if they painted their shields with 'Om' or not.

And Nalanda was the educational center of entire India until 1197 when it was sacked and destroyed. So it is still under Broken Crescent timeframe too. Too bad the rest of India (mainly the east) isn't present in BC, otherwise one could've easily recreated the sack...