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  1. #1
    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
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    Default Taoism - The Thread

    Taoism – The Thread

    I've been interested in Taoism for a long time, and its ideas have informed my attitude to life since my late teens. Since there seems to be some interest on this forum in various eastern philosophical systems (I refer you to The Fish's excellent thread on Hinduism and El Guapo's superb examination of Buddhism), and hopefully a receptiveness to ways of thinking which are outside the dogmatic and narrow constraints of conventional mainstream religion, I thought I might share my interest.

    I will not be discussing Taoism the organised religion, because I don't know anything about it. In any case, this was a later development, and we can examine and interpret the classical Taoist texts independently of it.

    If you know anything about Buddhism, Zen, or Hinudism, many of these ideas will seem familiar, as these systems, all of which are based on an analytical and sceptical evaluation of the nature of existence, have much in common.





    The Tai Chi, Yin and Yang, and the I Ching


    The Classic of Changes, or I Ching, is an ancient text (even compared to the other ancient texts described below, although its age is a subject of much discussion) and may be considered to represent the earliest known roots of Chinese cosmology which subsequently formed the basis for Taoist thinking. It describes the manifest universe as consisting of the results of the dynamic interplay of certain quintessential elemental principles, which, in their manifold fluctuations and permutations, give rise to all of creation and lie at the root of all causality.




    The subject matter of the I Ching is entirely abstract and symbolic. It describes the universe as consisting of an ultimate oneness (Tai Chi) which contains masculine and feminine aspects (Yang and Yin). these subsequently give rise to elemental forces (represented in the I Ching by groups of three “lines”, each of which may be yin or yang). The movements of the endlessly changing dynamic equilibrium of all events is then expressed in a series of sixty-four hexagrams, where each of the six lines can be either yin or yang. These sixty-four hexagrams form sixty-four archetypal images of all of the possibilities of the universe. The interpretation of each is further influenced by the changing or static qualities of each individual line in the hexagram. The purely abstract significance of the events portrayed by the hexagrams have been interpreted in ethical and philosophical terms in a variety of written commentaries.

    One of the keys points of this vision of the universe as consisting of two opposing positive and negative principals (which, as we know, is an accurate description of atomic and quantum realities) is that everything contains its opposite within itself, and all extremes must turn into their opposites. These qualities are graphically shown in the image of the Tai Chi.

    The compatibility of the Taoist paradigm of reality with quantum physics has been discussed in great detail in Fritjof Capra's famous book The Tao of Physics. Quantum pioneer Neils Bohr adopted the Tai Chi as a personal symbol at a time when eath-shattering discoveries in quantum mechanics were laying waste to the traditional conceptual framework of western reality.



    The classical Taoist Trilogy


    The three main texts which form the foundations of Taoist philosophy are considered to be: the Lao Tzu, the Chuang Tzu, and the Lieh Tzu. Each of these is named after a famous, though not necessarily factual, figure from Chinese history / legend. The true authorship of each of these is a complex matter, which I will not dwell upon.

    I haven't read the Lieh Tzu, so I can't comment on it; I'll focus on the other two members of the trilogy instead. The Lao Tzu, or Tao Te Ching consists of eighty-one terse and often cryptic chapters. It is concerned with profound spiritual and ontological questions, and the philosophy of kingship and the correct running of the state.

    Since the changing forces of the Tao overrule all, the business of the wise man is to arrange his affairs in harmony with the dictates of the Tao. This is the only path to success, since nothing can resist the Tao, and to go against it is to bring disaster upon oneself.

    “That which goes against the Way will come to an early end” - Tao Te Ching, chapter 30.

    According to the holistic logic of the Tao Te Ching, there is no dichotomy between the issues of cosmology and statecraft – since all of existence is united in the Tao and the microcosm reflects the macrocosm, the two are identical: by governing the state in accordance with the natural order, harmony is achieved, and prosperity will be the result. The Hermetic aphorism “As above, so below” is central in Taoism.

    The Chuang Tzu, in contrast, is a rambling and diverse collection of anecdotes, folk tales, fables, dissertations and commentaries, in wide ranging styles and presumably from the pen of countless authors. The subject matter of this anthology is much more down-to-earth than that of the Tao Te Ching – and yet the underlying ideas are founded on an identical paradigm. Where Lao Tzu is concerned with matters of immense import and scope – nothing less than the matter of ruling the kingdom in accordance with principles derived from the ultimate nature of existence – Chuang Tzu applies the same ideas to the life and spiritual development of the individual. There is a remarkable down-to-earth quality here, coexisting strangely with the contradictory, abstruse and mystical existential reflections that are integral to Taoist thought.

    Chuang Tzu, considering he existed (assuming that he did exist at all) over two thousand years ago, is a remarkably revolutionary, iconoclastic figure. He is convinced that the happiness, fulfilment and freedom of the individual depends on a determined defiance of convention and the renunciation of all petty conformity and the values of the masses. Yet , despite this headstrong rebelliousness, there is a persistent benevolence for humanity. The sage must follow his own path uncompromisingly, reject absolutely the inherited wisdom of society at large, and yet nurture his fellow man with compassion.



    Taoist Ontology

    Many people are of the opinion that the purpose of their life philosophy (or religion, if they call it that) is to explain away the mysteries of existence and creation and replace them with simple, easy answers. This need not always be the case, however. Some people believe that there is much that goes beyond what can be explained in clear terms, and that the ultimate nature of reality is, if not unknowable, is certainly inexpressible in words.

    There is no God figure in Taoist philosophy – the subject simply never arises, as if the great Taoist thinkers did not consider it worthy of attention. Although folk deities and spirits do occasionally receive a passing mention in these texts, the subject of any kind of all powerful divinity is never discussed.

    Taoism is at the same time an entirely pragmatic, sceptical philosophy, and a recondite and mystical one, full of paradoxes and concepts which cannot be fully grasped or defined in any strict literal or rational sense. The Lao Tzu and the Chuang Tzu tell us over and over again that we cannot know the origins of reality, or the causes behind its manifestation. The nature of the divine is never speculated upon, or even mentioned – at least in the sense that we conceive of it in western theology. Since the question is unanswerable, the originators of what we now call Taoism did not spend much time on it. The ultimate source of creation is simply written off as being the Tao – whatever that is.



    The Tao

    “The Way that can be spoken of is not the constant Way, the name that can be named is not the constant name.” - Tao Te Ching chapter 1

    The Tao itself is unknowable, undefinable, and omnipresent. It transcends logic and rational thought. It is said to be the supreme cause of all things, but it cannot be seen or described. This concept may seem bizarre to those who are not familiar with it, but in fact it is reminiscent of and analogous to corresponding concepts in several other philosophical systems. Since our rational minds are only one aspect of our nature, and the Tao is in everything, it is only reasonable that it must be greater than knowledge that can be grasped in concrete terms.

    However, just because the Tao cannot be explained does not mean that it does not exist. It can be seen by its actions. All skill is the result of the Tao. The problem we have has humans is trying to harness it without grasping it, for to attempt to grasp it is to lose it. Instead, we must attune ourselves to the Tao in a non-rational, intuitive way, just as our bodily organs function best when we are not consciously aware of them.

    This notion is encapsulated in the term Wu Wei, or actionless action. Actionless action does not mean idleness. Rather, it means a special, frictionless way of flowing with events without conflict. This can be achieved by using intelligence that is free from desire. According to Lao Tzu, the sage who understands the Tao acts without preconceptions or preferences, and is unattached to anything external to himself. He possesses a serenity and tranquillity that allows him to respond to the flow of change and events and maintain his inner balance and harmony without being disturbed. So, Wu Wei is not stillness, it is stability through motion, like the case of a gyroscope or a bicycle which remains upright as a result of constant motion.

    The enemies of the Tao are emotion and desire:

    “In an archery competition, you shoot as skilfully as possible, hoping to win. If you compete to win decorated bracelets, you are concerned with your aim. If you compete for gold, it can make you very nervous. Your skills are the same in all these cases, but because one of these is more significant than the others, this puts external pressure on you. To pay too much attention to external things makes you thoughtless about internal things.” - Chaung Tzu, chapter 19.

    This explains the phenomenon of the “choke” in matters of skill or sportsmanship. To utilise Wu Wei, we must transcend concern over the outcome of things, and then we will have complete relaxation and concentration on the moment and our actions will be harmonious. Everything should be done with ease and free of effort or apprehension. Our thoughts need to remain focused on the matter in hand (in the analogy above, we need to focus on our archery, without letting our thoughts stray beyond the mechanics of shooting) rather than becoming agitated by concerns that go beyond the immediate.

    The illusory nature of concerns and emotions is demonstrated in an anecdote in the same chapter of the Chuang Tzu. We are told that a duke fell ill after seeing a ghost when out hunting. He refused to go outside and his condition deteriorated. Then he talks to one of his advisors about the matter. The man listens attentively, and then informs him that the ghost he saw is an omen that means he will become dictator. Upon hearing this, the duke immediately leaps out of bed overjoyed and makes a full recovery. The point is that our imagination holds immense sway over us, to make us feel sick or strong.

    Yet another illustration of the transient and imaginary nature of our emotions is demonstrated by the following passage:

    “If someone who uses a boat to cross a lake is hit by an empty boat, he won't be angry. However, if there is a man in the other boat, he will shout at him to get out of the way. To start out, he had no one to be angry with, now there is someone.”

    What the author is getting at here is that how we respond to events is determined by ourselves – the events themselves do not affect us internally unless we wish them to.

    Being unconcerned about the outcome of things means that the wise man passes through life without troubles, as a drunken man can fall from a speeding carriage without sustaining injury because of his bodily relaxation and flexibility. The wise man is detached even from himself:

    “The sage puts his person last and it comes first,
    treats it as extraneous to himself and so it is preserved.
    Is it not because he is without thoughts of self that he is able to accomplish his private ends?” - Tao Te Ching, chapter 7.



    That's it for part one. Plenty more to follow, but now I must attend my brother's wedding.
    Ex Nihilo, Nihil Fit.
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  2. #2
    Ardeur's Avatar Chattering in Chinese
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    For those interested, I thoroughly enjoyed the Tao of Pooh and the Te of Piglet .

  3. #3

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    The tao is obviously a bit of a tough one – or is it a case of the 'more than two paragraphs syndrome' whatever happened to the art of war eh!
    This is a different version of the poem i spoke about nihil, the interesting thing i got from it is the idea of skill above skill. As a highly skilled man myself there are times when by trying i can obtain a degree of perfection, then there are those magical times when without even trying it just happens, but to the highest degree! This works on a mental level too, when thinking of ideas in the early hours concepts arrive in the mind with perfect clarity, then within a brief moment the pure shape gains texture then roughness and the quintessential essence of the meaning is lost. In fact my entire philosophical effort is to 'follow the circle' and try to arrive back where i started, usually the circle becomes a spiral and i end up a level down. In a conversation at a philosophy course i go to, on one occasion a chap was overwhelmed by a single sentence i said which like an arrow shot straight to the core of his distress which had been built up over many years without resolution. The tutor tried to be clever and give a lengthy explanation, yet no matter what he said it did not convey the meaning, rather it just went around in circles never arriving at the target center.
    I never knew how much i did not understand the tao until reading this poem. I think the whole misunderstanding was itself the tao as only after i arrived there did i know what there was.

    The butcher carving up an ox

    A cook was butchering an ox for Duke Wen Hui.
    The places his hand touched,
    His shoulder leaned against,
    His foot stepped on,
    His knee pressed upon,
    Came apart with a sound.

    He moved the blade, making a noise
    That never fell out of rhythm.
    It harmonized with the Mulberry Woods Dance,
    Like music from ancient times.
    Duke Wen Hui exclaimed: "Ah! Excellent!
    Your skill has advanced to this level?"

    "What I follow is Tao,
    The cook puts down the knife and answered:
    Which is beyond all skills.
    "When I started butchering,
    What I saw was nothing but the whole ox.
    After three years,
    I no longer saw the whole ox.

    "Nowadays, I meet it with my mind
    Rather than see it with my eyes.
    My sensory organs are inactive
    While I direct the mind's movement.
    "It goes according to natural laws,
    Striking apart large gaps,
    Moving toward large openings,
    Following its natural structure.

    "Even places where tendons attach to bones
    Give no resistance,
    Never mind the larger bones!
    "A good cook goes through a knife in a year,
    Because he cuts.
    An average cook goes through a knife in a month,
    Because he hacks.

    "I have used this knife for nineteen years.
    It has butchered thousands of oxen,
    But the blade is still like it's newly sharpened.
    "The joints have openings,
    And the knife's blade has no thickness.
    Apply this lack of thickness into the openings,
    And the moving blade swishes through,
    With room to spare!

    "That's why after nineteen years,
    The blade is still like it's newly sharpened.
    "Nevertheless, every time I come across joints,
    I see its tricky parts,
    I pay attention and use caution,
    My vision concentrates,
    My movement slows down.

    "I move the knife very slightly,
    Whump! It has already separated.
    The ox doesn't even know it's dead,
    and falls to the ground like mud.
    "I stand holding the knife,
    And look all around it.
    The work gives me much satisfaction.
    I clean the knife and put it away."

    Duke Wen Hui said: "Excellent!
    I listen to your words,
    And learn a principle of life."
    Last edited by Amorphos; March 06, 2007 at 02:01 PM.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  4. #4
    Nihil's Avatar Annihilationist
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    Cheers Quetzalcoatl. Your extract is from Chuang Tzu, and is pretty typical of it.

    As a highly skilled man myself there are times when by trying i can obtain a degree of perfection, then there are those magical times when without even trying it just happens, but to the highest degree!
    Yeah, that is the essence of the Tao - how to achieve this perfect state of focus and "attuned-ness" where concentration is total and every act is performed flawlessly, but it's almost as if it happens unconsciously.
    Ex Nihilo, Nihil Fit.
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    but it's almost as if it happens unconsciously
    yeah that is the strangest aspect of it, one would think that we are not concentrating at all - such is the emptiness. This is what makes me think of the mind as subjective in ordinary tasks, yet capable of simply being empty yet in connection with all things and hence there is an 'automatic knowledge' - if you will. we can separate the mind from great pain, all outer emotional feeling and constructed thought by just letting go.

    I suppose this is why buddhism caught on in china, there are so many connections and similarities between the two. what i like about taoism though is the lack of deification, the sheer abstractness of it but above all the universality of it – in fact it may be more than universal as even this would be a constraint to the tao in essence [if it even has an essence :hmmm: ]
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    There's more to it than attuned-ness. But attuned-ness comes more and more frequently, indeed.
    Last edited by Ummon; March 08, 2007 at 02:07 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    ummon
    The tao seams to grow the more you think about it, perhaps there is a tao within all faiths for example; the Egyptians had the 'maat' which is balance in all things, so this for me is a kind of tao. with Christianity perhaps it is love and compassion?

    btw, a bit off topic but i been thinking about what you said concerning memory, is it completely located in the braine.g. if you sit on a hilltop admiring the view it would take a computer the size of a planet to take in all that info - then to remeber all the locations we go to? dunno perhaps i am clutching at straws here.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    I would say, that from an entirely scientific point of view, the memory is in the brain.

    The matter though is a lot more complicated than this. I can say that, you can consider memory, a crystallized part of something greater.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    Everything in the spiritual realms appears to not have memory, its all very here n now. memory is only relevant to earthly existence as it is replaced with knowing elsewhere. Perhaps this actually links back to the tao as the tao is not linked to e.g. The memory of how to perform a skill, it just is the perfected art.

    Thats another thing eh; the tao of art, one may have no skill in painting yet produce a masterpiece if chi is allowed to pass through in streams.

    and another thing; the tao of bringing threads back on topic
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    All threads are on topic... :wink:

  11. #11

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    good point!
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    while as a chinese i really should be reading this, philosphy bores me. Sure id like to make up my own philosophy, but really, who has the time to listen to someone elses mad ramblings?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    We all have time thats what the forum is for, otherwise it would be empty. Philosophy is not just rambling it is explanations, perceptions and conceptions too.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    He who speaks does not know, and he who knows does not speak.

  15. #15
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    No, in truth, if he who knows doesn't speak, he has miserably failed. And if he speaks, he is wrong.

    In a sense ambiguous and cryptic sentences, uttered with a mad chuckle, remain the best solution.
    Last edited by Ummon; March 14, 2007 at 01:18 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    For me one of the most interesting parts of Taoism is the concept of Wu wei, the "without action" doctrine. Wu wei is rather tricky to explain in a short and concise way so I'll post some notions:

    In the original Taoist texts, wu wei is often associated with water and its yielding nature. Although water is soft and weak, it has the capacity to erode even solid stone (see Grand Canyon) and move mountains (see landslides). Water is without will (i.e., the will for a shape), though i can be understood to be opposing wood, stone, or any solid material that can be broken into pieces. It can fill any container, take any shape, go anywhere, even into the smallest holes. When falling as rain in thousands of small drops, water still has the capacity to reunite as it eventually joins the endless seas. Furthermore, while always going downward, water rests in the 'dark valley'—where biological life is regenerated—an analogy to the reproductive organ.
    and to quote from Zhuang Zi:
    A fully achieved person is like a spirit! The great marshes could be set on fire, but she wouldn't feel hot. The rivers in China could all freeze over, but she wouldn't feel cold. Thunder could suddenly echo through the mountains, wind could cause a tsunami in the ocean, but she wouldn't be startled. A person like that could ride through the sky on the floating clouds, straddle the sun and moon, and travel beyond the four seas. Neither death nor life can cause changes within her, and there's little reason for her to even consider benefit or harm.
    I find this interesting specially because I think there is some logical connection to the Zen notion of "Mushin", the "mind of no mind", that is, a mind not fixed or occupied by thought or emotion and thus open to everything.

    Mushin is achieved when a fighter feels no anger, fear or ego during combat. There is an absence of discursive thought, and so the fighter is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation. At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is felt intuitively.
    浪人 - 二天一

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    If we only knew what we are speaking of! Lucky us, we don't.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    If we only knew what we are speaking of! Lucky us, we don't.
    Huh?
    I don't know about you but I'm talking about one of the aspects of Taoism.
    I posted the above quotes to illustrate to others what I already know in a simple and straightforward language. I wouldn't claim to know more than what I said, I'm not that pretentious.
    Aren't we being a bit snobbish today?...
    浪人 - 二天一

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    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    No, in truth I was joking.

    But the joke has a meaning, which though isn't criticism of your post. It is indeed though, unproper to consider the argument you discuss, from a purely rational point of view. In substance, your quote is exceptionally interesting, but

    Mushin is achieved when a fighter feels no anger, fear or ego during combat. There is an absence of discursive thought, and so the fighter is totally free to act and react towards an opponent without hesitation. At this point, a person relies not on what they think should be the next move, but what is felt intuitively.
    Now how do you judge that sentence, given that sentence as a premise?
    Last edited by Ummon; March 14, 2007 at 02:03 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Taoism - The Thread

    Well, Mushin itself (or more accurately mushin no shin) is a martial practice with roots on Zen Buddhism but that in essence, in my perspective, is connected to the Taoist concept of Wu wei.
    Though developed in a martial environment, like i've said, the ultimate goal is to, after learning it in such environment, applying it to the everyday life, the so called heijoshin (complete balance and harmony).
    For me these concepts are highly compatible with Taoism in the context I stated, even if applied in a different fashion.

    As for "purely rational point of view", I before ,though metaphorical and again dependent of context, mushin isn't strictly connected to a specific field/area, it's a contextual concept: a surgeon who is about to use his skills enters a state of fluid thought and eye/hand coordination, a psychologist who tries to decipher/analyse the mind of a subject is at the same time releasing his mind from the constraints of his own "self" and, while applying logical thought structures, entering a "clear mind" state where he can perform better.
    Again, this is all in context, and my reference was within a specific one.
    浪人 - 二天一

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