Greek vs Native Egypt

[SinerAthin]

So, I've seen some discussion about the Greek vs Native Egyptians.

Mainly that the supporter of the Greek egyptians are concerned with historical accuracy and such.

But I had an idea:
What if your earliest starting units started out as greek, but then as you developed as Egypt, your army became more and more personalized?

What I mean with this is that historical accuracy should mainly be the focus with the starting units, but as you developed further into the game; as you conquered and gained power as Egypt; you would be able to personalize your army more, possibly through reforms and developement(after all, Total War is about making your own history by using actual history).
Essentially, what this would entail was the possibility of choosing how to develope as Egypt. Such as whether or not you wanted to be copying the greeks/Romans, or if you'd only copy a few ideas & try to personalize and make your army more unique to compliment Egypt's rebirth?

So what do you think?

[Andreius Pretorianus]

I m just glad,that Cleopatra is actually white.I would have expected CA,to be PC,at this and make her black .GG CA

[Dan113112]

I m just glad,that Cleopatra is actually white.I would have expected CA,to be PC,at this and make her black .GG CA

Funny story. I was on YouTube and mentioned on a certain video that Hannibal probably wasn't black and neither were ancient Egyptians. This video channel was frequented by Afrocentrists. I got so much hate mail I had to delete my YouTube account.

[Kushite]

Funny story. I was on YouTube and mentioned on a certain video that Hannibal probably wasn't black and neither were ancient Egyptians. This video channel was frequented by Afrocentrists. I got so much hate mail I had to delete my YouTube account.

Hell, Egyptians these days aren't even black, they're kinda like a Coptic-Arabic. Though I've met a few Egyptians and they hate being classified as Arab.

[Toho]

Funny story. I was on YouTube and mentioned on a certain video that Hannibal probably wasn't black and neither were ancient Egyptians. This video channel was frequented by Afrocentrists. I got so much hate mail I had to delete my YouTube account.

yea those guys are crazy. they say they are the original jews now.

[bengalg3]

I m just glad,that Cleopatra is actually white.I would have expected CA,to be PC,at this and make her black .GG CA

Dont know how on earth she can be black.... You mean Egyptian?

[Dan113112]

Dont know how on earth she can be black.... You mean Egyptian?

I think he's relating to how some Afrocentrist individuals believe everyone in ancient Egypt was black. Including even Cleopatra.

Personally I think this picture says Egyptians weren't black:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ng_Nubians.jpg

[hekk]

Wasn't there some talk before about having the ability to choose whether to go "native" with the Egyptian faction or not? As in have the Ptolemaics either overthrown or assimiliated by the Egyptians and get a Old Egyptian style roster, or resist pressure from the natives and stay Greek with Greek-like military units. I think that would've been a cool choice that would probably please most people, and would've made Egypt a very dynamic and interesting faction.

[SinerAthin]

Wasn't there some talk before about having the ability to choose whether to go "native" with the Egyptian faction or not? As in have the Ptolemaics either overthrown or assimiliated by the Egyptians and get a Old Egyptian style roster, or resist pressure from the natives and stay Greek with Greek-like military units. I think that would've been a cool choice that would probably please most people, and would've made Egypt a very dynamic and interesting faction.

That was pretty much my idea exactly when I made this thread


Also, as a side-note; even if we did go native Egyptian, I would still expect a few advancements, so although they took inspiration from the older times, you'd still see some newer ideas incorporated into the new native egyptian force, a mix between old traditions and newer innovations, maybe like more advanced metalwork.

[AwareLine63779]

I would like a mostly accurate Egypt. Hellenistic at core, with some local Egyptian-style units. I am okay if a few artistic liberties are taken, but still I want it to be mostly accurate.

[alex man142]

I agree with the above post.

[neoptolemos]

I would like a mostly accurate Egypt. Hellenistic at core, with some local Egyptian-style units. I am okay if a few artistic liberties are taken, but still I want it to be mostly accurate.

I agree with the above post.

Yep that's my opinion too.
Besides Alexandria was a predominant Greek city given also that her Greek population surpassed other Greek mainland cities.
The natives offers an exotic addition to the hellenistic roster which make Ptolemies unique in comparison with other Hellenistic states.That's more than suffice IMHO.

[SinerAthin]

Yep that's my opinion too.
Besides Alexandria was a predominant Greek city given also that her Greek population surpassed other Greek mainland cities.
The natives offers an exotic addition to the hellenistic roster which make Ptolemies unique in comparison with other Hellenistic states.That's more than suffice IMHO.

I think it's worth noting for you three, that in both of the options in the poll; Egypt will start as Ptomic rule and Hellenistic influence, with focus on historical accuracy.

The difference between the choices is that in one choice, it'll stay that way from beginning to end, but in the other one; you can potentially choose whether or not you want to overthrow the Hellenistic government in favor of a more traditional, native Egyptian rule.

[neoptolemos]

I would like a mostly accurate Egypt. Hellenistic at core, with some local Egyptian-style units. I am okay if a few artistic liberties are taken, but still I want it to be mostly accurate.

I think it's worth noting for you three, that in both of the options in the poll; Egypt will start as Ptomic rule and Hellenistic influence, with focus on historical accuracy.

The difference between the choices is that in one choice, it'll stay that way from beginning to end, but in the other one; you can potentially choose whether or not you want to overthrow the Hellenistic government in favor of a more traditional, native Egyptian rule.

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that Ptolemies were called pharaohs and they were considered as such by the natives.They have also adopted Egyptian religious and royal symbols and religious practises such as mummification.
In my eyes that's traditional as it can get so I really can't see you point here.Ptolemies are not Macedon or Pergamon.

[SinerAthin]

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that Ptolemies were called pharaohs and they were considered as such by the natives.They have also adopted Egyptian religious and royal symbols and religious practises such as mummification.
In my eyes that's traditional as it can get so I really can't see you point here.Ptolemies are not Macedon or Pergamon.

I'm using the term very vaguely to describe the upper class and the hellinistic influence, and by choosing between the two it's more of a choice of the ancient egyptian culture vs the greek culture, such as the rule of the ptlomeis vs the rebellious, native egyptians.

[alex man142]

I don't know if you are aware of the fact that Ptolemies were called pharaohs and they were considered as such by the natives.They have also adopted Egyptian religious and royal symbols and religious practises such as mummification.
In my eyes that's traditional as it can get so I really can't see you point here.Ptolemies are not Macedon or Pergamon.

I know that, but to their Greek subjects, the Ptolomaioi were known as Basileus; or the king. Despite them being called Pharaohs, that does NOT change the fact that the Ptolomaic army was ALL GREEK until Raphia in 217 BC.

[King of the Ring]

Egypt was a centre of culture and prosperity, the choice of different government and different ways of evolving the society should is completely viable.

,,The Greeks formed the new upper classes in Egypt, replacing the old native aristocracy. In general, the Ptolemies undertook changes that went far beyond any other measures that earlier foreign rulers had imposed. They used the religion and traditions to increase their own power and wealth. Although they established a prosperous kingdom, enhanced with fine buildings, the native population enjoyed few benefits, and there were frequent uprisings.

Ptolemaic Egypt, along with the other Hellenistic states outside of the Greek mainland after Alexander the Great, had its armies based on the Macedonian phalanx and featured Macedonian and native troops fighting side by side.
The Ptolemaic military was filled with diverse peoples from across their territories. At first most of the military was made up of a pool of Greek settlers who, in exchange for military service, were given land grants. These made up the majority of the army.
With the many wars the Ptolemies were involved in, their pool of Greek troops dwindled and there was little Greek immigration from the mainland so they were kept in the royal bodyguard and as generals and officers. Native troops were looked down upon and distrusted due to their disloyalty and frequent tendency to aid local revolts. However, with the decline of royal power, they gained influence and became common in the military.

The Ptolemies used the great wealth of Egypt to their advantage by hiring vast amounts of mercenaries from across the known world.
Black Ethiopians are also known to have served in the military along with the Galatians, Mysians and others. Jews were particularly imported as military settlers and made up as much as twenty percent of the military.''


Also, i wouldnt be upset if i would play as a pure egyptian pharaoah named Ramses or something like this, or the possibility / event of this change through choice or uprising or overthrown king.

[panzerschreck]

I think Egypt had probably mixed units. The problem is : did the native units still look like this at this period? (I mean like represented in the video). The idea to have many units of mercenaries in our egyptian army seems accurate too.
Ethiopians, jews, nubians would be a great addition to this faction.
King of the ring: what's your source, please?

[Grimbold]

Seriously? Why in the world is everyone making a fuss out of this?

It was one bloody chariot... ONE! probably representing some sort of nobleman, since it appeared when Cleopatra was speaking of her brother.

[neoptolemos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

Although they are artistic representations and not "photos", we can assume that they depict the main characteristics of the Egyptian populations, be it Greek or natives.