Mordor the bane of Elf kingdoms

[CatoTheYounger]

The Elfs are considered Orc killers and use Goblins as pin cushions for their archers. However....

Playing as Mordor i have had huge success against Elf factions where as when i played OoMM i found it difficult to match up with Elf's.

First of All mordor has the uber Orcs. The Morannon Guard are the best Orc units in the game. Better armoured and armed they are a powerfull defensive force when deployed in large numbers and put on guard. Filling half of your stack up with these units is a problem for the Elfs because they are a bit harder to cut done and they hold the line defensively for long periods when put on guard. Also the Nazgul ride down and slaughter Elven archers. Deploy up to 2-3 Nazgul in a stack is usualy enough to cause havoc.

The Elves main problem against Mordor is not only the Nazgul but the fact that the Moranon Guard are not only a more impressive regular Orc army but their are still 252 of them per unit compared with 120 elves. Engulf the Elven line with Morannon Guard units and some Uruks and you will not only hold the line but flank them with overwhelming numbers. Keep them in guard and the send the Nazgul behind the lines to chase off and route the archers. Keep a single unit of Olag Hai battle Trolls as shock troops to smash up the already engaged Elfs and break their lines while the orc hordes swarm around them.

Take a full Mordor stack properly constituted against a full Elite Elven stack and Mordor will almost always prevail. I find the Dwarves are a hardier matchup for Mordor. They can grind it out in the trenches with Mordor better i find. The same strategy doesn't work as well for OoMM i find because their Goblins just cant hold their ground as well and the Wargs cant take care of bussiness for a sustained period of time to deal with archers while the Nazgul make Elven archers mortal.

All you orc lovers afraid of the Elven bow fear not. Swarm engulf and force them to stay in their forrest. In the open field they are Flesh for the hungry orcs.

[ThorHa]

Versus the AI? Sure. But I would take the force you mentioned (1 battle troll, 2 to 3 Nazguls, 8 Maranon Guards, else average Mordor units) any time of the day with an average Elven full stack (no more than 6 elites incorporated) on the attack and a 2/rd stack on the defense and further bet on losses no higher than 25%for the Elves.

Regards,
Thorsten

[riuk881]

Sounds effective I'll have to try it out! +rep

[Dude with the Food]

Silvans can shoot your poor shieldless cavalry quickly and partially kill the trolls. After all that, they can simply charge your flanking forces because even Light Elven Archers can match Morannon Guard in stats though maybe not numbers.

High Elves have better infantry and cavalry to counter your numbers anyway before their almost as amazing archers can still decimate Nazgul.

[Loki_999]

That's more or less the point of Orc factions though isn't it? You have generally speaking inferior units, and against elves you cannot keep your distance and get into a shootout with your snagas or whatever. Push them, engulf them, its the only way with Orcs.

And its why when playing as elves against orcs you keep your distance and pepper them with arrows.

[Wolfeson]

This really comes down more to the poor quality of the battle AI than faction quality. You could easily turn the situation around and say that you could easily beat an AI-controlled Mordor stack with an elven force. Frankly, pretty much any player-controlled full stack should be able to beat any AI-controlled full stack. In a custom battle with players behind both armies elves vs. Mordor would be an interesting fight, but I'd still be inclined to go with the elves. Their ranged firepower is simply overwhelming, and the respectable melee ability of their archers gives them great flexibility. Plus, any player controlling the elves would make a point to focus fire the Nazgul units early. Mordor might be able to turn things around with trolls, but even they aren't immune to arrows.

[CatoTheYounger]

All true about the AI. However its all relative.

Mordor has an advantage in that their high end Orcs have excellent moral and huge numbers as well as good defense for Orcs. They need only hold the enemy in place which they do well. Three Morannon Guard can absorb five Elf units as the battle continues. Attrition is an Elf killer. This is why for Mordor guard mode is important for your elite Orcs and Uruks. Then you can use your Uruks and Trolls and Nazgul to drive home the victory. Elves are awesome but Olog Hai mess up their game plan and the Mordor numbers advantage actualy works better then other Orc factions because of their high Moral. Doesn't hurt that most your Nazgul have high leadership as well.

[Salah-ad-deen]

What about taking cost of the army and upkeep into consideration, even though the AI can spam stacks, what about human players who have to pay for the army. Taking that into consideration if both factions were human controlled would the Elf faction have enough money to build a dread stack? If for example both factions were only at war with each other.

[CatoTheYounger]

As far as the cost of war Mordor can field several full stacks of quality troops. The Elf's would be hard pressed to match them. The human player can manipulate the Elfs to handle Mordor just as well of course but i was mostly noticing how they don't have the issues with Elf's that other Orc factions have. Upkeep for Morannon Guard,Uruks and Uruk Halbers all 180. You can field nearly 5000 orcs in a full stack. All with excellent Moral.

For me Mordor is still the stud of Middle Earth all things considered.

[ThorHa]

Not with the current game mechanics. The stack mentioned from you would be - and easily - countered with a non elite Elven stack. 1 general, 4 HE bow quendi, 4 HE Noretino warriors, 4 HE Eldawin archers, 2 HE Eldawin spearmen, 4 HE light infantry and 1 unit of Noretino cavalry and I take a bet any time of the day that in a 1:1 between human players the Mordor army would be toast. Because it has just 4 units being able to score hits (if the human player is capable) - the 3 Nazguls and the battle trolls.

A competent human player would simply avoid melee until last moment. But until then he would lose some men (not units) against the Nazgul and may be a full unit worth of men against the battle troll. In the meantime the Orc army is constantly reduced to a mere shadow when finally the Elven player allows melee. For the short time period until the Mordor army routs that is (after the fall of the Nazgul and the battle troll).

I know it´s no acheivement for a human player. But against AI Mordor stacks with up to 7 troll units (4 of them catapults) I use to win against the AI with losses lower than 30% meanwhile and regard anything else as a defeat.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Honors Bastion]

While it is true that Mordor can take on the elves much more easily than the other orc factions, the elves in the end still have the upper hand. As described by several other posters, a well controlled HE and in most cases a well controlled SE army even with low quality troops can decimate most orc armies even if they suffer 20% losses as a result.

You are also forgetting what a good cavalry charge can do to Olog hai. They can kill quite a few of them in short order without suffering too many losses of their own.

[riuk881]

You are also forgetting what a good cavalry charge can do to Olog hai. They can kill quite a few of them in short order without suffering too many losses of their own.

really? this is good to know...

[CatoTheYounger]

While it is true that Mordor can take on the elves much more easily than the other orc factions, the elves in the end still have the upper hand. As described by several other posters, a well controlled HE and in most cases a well controlled SE army even with low quality troops can decimate most orc armies even if they suffer 20% losses as a result.

You are also forgetting what a good cavalry charge can do to Olog hai. They can kill quite a few of them in short order without suffering too many losses of their own.

Obviously any faction controlled by the Human against AI will dominate. However that was not the point i was trying to make.

Not sure the army you mentinoed above would beat a full stack of 10 Moranon Guard, 3 Uruks, 3 Nazgul, 1 Olag Hai and Orc or Uruk Archers. Not engage until later? Mordor charges the entire army into the Elves. They would be scattered and not firing but running until they were forced to engage out of formation. once the infantry is engaged the Elven Archers can't just pick away engaged Mordor army. Maybe against the AI but a competent human would never alow it.

And again don't forget how Mordor can cheaply field massive stacks with twice the soldiers as the Elves. Elven upkeep and lack of numbers would make them more of a defensive force in a multi player human game. But who knows can you play multi-player TATW? That would be a hoot!

[Wizad]

Elven factions dominate all battles, they are too numerous for their good stats.
After the Elves come the humans with cavalry generals, think Eriador especially. Dale is weaker than the other mannish factions.
Isengard with its semi-elite Orcs might tie with Dale in terms of strength. Mordor ranks behind Isengard and Dale.
And last, and very much least, are the northern Orcs. They lack diversity, map position, good generals and all of their troops are of a lesser quality than the other factions.

But who knows can you play multi-player TATW? That would be a hoot!

That would definitely be one of the best games of all time. If CA releases good modding tools for Rome 2, and King Kong decides to continue TATW in Rome 2. Bam, TATW multiplayer campaigns.

[Honors Bastion]

It still can be done. You mention that the morannon guards and uruks can be easily produced and they are cheap and while that it is true, you are forgetting the fact it is not the same for the olog hai and nazgul. An army composed of just the orcs after the olog hai and nazgul have been eliminated is fairly weak against even a low tier elf army. They just don't have the power to take the elves down especially when the human player knows how to use his cavalry and archers fairly well in conjunction with each other.

[MikeBlack]

Just to chime in my thoughts, I've personally won a battle with an entire stack of Silvan Elf units (mostly lowest tier archers, a few lowest tier infantry + 1 horsearcher) and a strong general, vs 2 stacks of Mordor's "best" units, mostly Morranon guard and Uruks, 2 Olag-Hai in each army, a couple siege weapons, and a 10 star nazgul leading the attacking force, and me defending in Mordor territory on a small (not pathfinding glitchy) hill. True, it was only on hard battle difficulty, but I won with only ~25% losses or so, so I'm pretty confident I could do it on VH as well taking higher losses, and I'm certainly far from an expert Third Age player (thus playing on hard only heh heh). I'm not sure how the total value of troops balances out, but Olag-hai are definitely not cheap, and my army was strictly lowest tier units other then the general, and although it was a tough fight, I'd put my money on a 1v1 stack fight with the elves any day. I can certainly see a human winning as Mordor vs ai Elves easily, but I don't really think the overall unit strengths are even in that comparison.

[Macilrille]

Well, I play MOS, so I cannot speak for Vanilla, but having tried playing both Mordor and HE I can say that to me the HE are the tactically strongest of the two. The HE high-tier units are totally Über, as they should be. Their price is very high, but if one play to conserve units (which I do for roleplaying reasons) the HE are incredibly strong and even on VH they can take on and beat twice their number unit-wise from any evil faction.

But... that is in MOS. I have no idea about Vanilla.

[rrgg]

One of the few downsides of the elves is that I don't think they have many armor-peircing units. Messing around in custom battles even iron crossbowmen seem to hold their own surprisingly well against elite elven archers.

[ThorHa]

That´s correct, the only ap units the HE have are both either far from the battlefield (Longspeers) or very late and rare to get (the special warhammers unit from Ost-in_Edhil), so in a campaign both are practically useless.

Regards,
Thorsten

[riuk881]

SE Woodland Warriors have ap. atleast in vanilla