Legion sizes

[Lokaar]

Before you read, this is an "I don't understand" thread rather than a "you got it wrong" thread.

After reading Candelarius' (and others) "ultimate guide to playing RTR historically", I was left wondering about the in-game sizes of the pre-reform legions. From what I've read (internet + Adrian Goldsworthy's "The Complete Roman Army") the size of the Roman part of an early region was around 4200 men (not including cavalry), and was accompanied by a similar number of allies. As stated in the above guide, this would put 1 "RTR man" = 10 "real men", making a standard legion a half-stack.

However, after the reforms a legion numbered around 4800 men (not including cavalry) plus maybe a few auxilia units. The army list in Candelarius' guide has this as ten units of men (9 normal + 1 first cohort) which is a ratio of 1 "RTR man" = 3 "real men". So after the reforms, a legion is larger than the pre-reform double legion (in game terms) when it should be similar in size.

Are these differences because a full stack (~16 units) "legion" is unreasonably powerful in the early game, but in the mid-late game a 6 unit "legion" is too weak (hence the size change)?
Would it be reasonable to double the number of units in the early legion, but reduce the sizes from 160 to 120 men (80 to 60 for the triarii), and then keep the post-reform legion the same? (thus changing the ratio from 1:10 to 1:5)
Or reduce the post-reform legions similarly (changing the ratio from 1:3 to 1:4)
I find the small number of units in the current early legion to be a bit limiting sometimes, so more units would be better, even if they had fewer men.

Any thoughts or comments on the matter would be greatly appreciated. I'm considering doing a roman aar when PE1.7 comes out, and I want to be sure i have everything "right" before i start :hmmm:

[Darth Caesar]

well everyone has a different opinion on legio size, my legions are always in terms of 4, 2 hastati, one princepe and one triari plus aux, I usually combine 2 legions into one army so I do have enough men to work with on a campaign

[Black Francis]

To represent a post Marius Legion I use 5 cohorts of legionaries (one of which will be an eagle bearer unit). I find that at least this way I can have 2 or even 3 Legions in the same army.

[century x]

in post legions I use 1 first cohort and 9 cohorts, with other units, auxilary units mostly and all. But I sometimes change it.

And also I usually have 30 legions marching all over the world

[The Walrus]

Adapt against the enemies strategy my friends. But my standard legions would have
to be 3-5 hastati, 3-5 principes, 2 triarii, 2-4 velites, 2-4 Itilian cavalry, and one general.

[century x]

your right walrus, that's the key word ADAPT. It all depends on who u are fighting and wat situation u are in

[Darth Caesar]

I dont think with having 10 "cohorts" you have to adapt very much, you can pretty much steam roll the enemy, with Lestsats Imperatpr II mod, the legions look different so having 2 or 3 different legions is cool to look at, plus, a roman legion very rarely fought a battle on its own, usually it was 2 or 3 legions combined into an army

[The Walrus]

You do if you're facing a huge scythe chariot army or elephant army or heavy cavalry army.

[ikon]

0)
I find Candelarius' (and others) "ultimate guide to playing RTR historically" an excellent and deep piece of work.
However, I completely agree with you Lokaar, in that legion sizes need some more thought and work to improve upon those great guidelines to play.
So, these are my opinions, that follow a logical sequence - I start with Marian because I think its easier to fit in the game - Polybian legion is a pain to represent...

1)
Post Marius legion 1 First Cohort + 9 Cohorts structure is easily and nicely modelled with 10 units.
Less than 10 units (5 for instance, 1 unit being equal to 2 cohorts), the first cohort difference gets lost. More, it wouldnt fit in a full-stack.
This "basic" Marian legion is thus exactly half-stack (without the general).

2)
Two legions like this, plus general cant fit in a full-stack (10+10+1=21).
Also, usually marian legions had auxillia units, Caesar used lots of cavalry attached, etc, and we need space for these units.
So the "complete" marian legion would be 1 general + 10 cohorts + 1 tribune (as in Candel'Ult.Guide) + up to 8 units (auxillia, cavalry, etc).
This makes the "complete" legion be the full-stack.

3)
As the game allow us to enter battles with more than one full-stack , I feel that a roman "field army" with 2 or 3 legions is neatly represented by 2 or 3 full-stacks. One can be commanded by a Praetor, the other 1 or 2 by Legates (Candel'Ult.Guide).

4)
Flexibity: field armies are can be between 1 to 3 legions (I think its quite difficult to commit more than 3 stacks into battle)
Management of the composition of the extra auxillia and cavalry units, including allies, mercenaries, siege-engines, etc, also plays a big part in the flexibility.

5)
1 unit = 1 Cohort = 6 centuries(80-men) = 480 men (first cohort = 5 double-cent.(160-men) = 800 men).
The default unit size of 40 makes a size ratio of 1:12. If we change the cohort unit size to 48, we get a 1:10 ratio. I think both ratios work, might be a matter of taste, but I still have to think more about this.

6)
Cavalry is reported to be 120 by this time, so unit size should be corrected to 10 at 1:12 or 12 at 1:10.

7)
Now the hard part - Polybian legions:
To be consistent with Marian legions, "complete" Polybian legions should be a full-stack.
A "complete" Polybian legion is the roman legion plus the Allied legion.
The roman polybian legion is then about half-stack (similar to Marian, makes sense).

8)
The fundamental structure of the polybian legion is the manipule. 30 of them (10 hastati + 10 principes + 10 triarii, plus attached velites). We can never make that fit into an half-stack, as we did with cohorts.
Also we want to separate by unit type, not mix.
So, I will use a "fuzzy" logic.

9)
Cohort was already being used at this age, for admnistrative purpuses, consisting of 3 manipules: 1 hastati (double-century) + 1 principes (double-century) + 1 triarii = 5 centuries. Seems that Velites were attached to these, instead of being independent.
Since polybian centuries are smaller (60-men) than Marian ones (80-men), but usually doubled in manipules (120-men), ill introduce the idea of "double-cohort", likewise with smaller but doubled elements than Marian cohort: 5 double polybian centuries (5x2x60=600) instead of 6 marian centuries (6x80=480).
There seems to be something similar to this "double-cohort": the Vexillum. Vexillum was the word for standard flag, but also used to name troops grouped under that flag, somewhat of this size, but theres not much information available about this, so dont take this for granted.
I propose this "double-cohort" or vexillum to be represented in a unit.

10)
Thus the roman polybian legion gets to be:
2 hastati units = 2 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 1200 hastati
2 principes units = 2 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 1200 principes
1 triarii unit = 1 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 600 triarii
and the velites:
1 velites unit = 3 x 10 maniple-attachments x 40-men = 1200 velites
plus cavalry:
1 equites unit = 300 equites
also if we use slingers funditores:
1 funditores unit = 1 x 10 maniple-attachments x 80-men = 800 funditores
The attached italian allied legion (for protecting the flanks) is a copy (but cavalry is reported to be 600-800):
1 It.Velites + 2 It.Hastati + 2 It.Principes + 1 It.Triarii + 2 It.Cavalry

11)
Unit size has to be tweaked a lot.
For 1:10
Velites = 120
Hastati = 60
Principes = 60
Triarii = 60
Equites = 30
Funditores = 80
For 1:12
Velites = 100
Hastati = 50
Principes = 50
Triarii = 50
Equites = 25
Funditores = 66.6

In case someone is wondering, I have done a lot of research regarding this subject. Mostly in the internet, but also some history books.
In the future, I might try to remember all the sources of information, but right now I dont have time for that.
So, feel free to have your doubts, as Im not fully backing up my propositions.
Some links to info, tough:
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Orac...2/legions.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6622/gaps.html
http://p200.ezboard.com/fromanarmyta...icID=171.topic
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rrice/175215.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniple_(military_unit)

I'm planning a mini-mod to implement all this.

Lokaar, what do you plan to do for RTRPE 1.7 ?

Ikon

[Lokaar]

1)
Post Marius legion 1 First Cohort + 9 Cohorts structure is easily and nicely modelled with 10 units.
Less than 10 units (5 for instance, 1 unit being equal to 2 cohorts), the first cohort difference gets lost. More, it wouldnt fit in a full-stack.
This "basic" Marian legion is thus exactly half-stack (without the general).

2)
Two legions like this, plus general cant fit in a full-stack (10+10+1=21).
Also, usually marian legions had auxillia units, Caesar used lots of cavalry attached, etc, and we need space for these units.
So the "complete" marian legion would be 1 general + 10 cohorts + 1 tribune (as in Candel'Ult.Guide) + up to 8 units (auxillia, cavalry, etc).
This makes the "complete" legion be the full-stack.

Yup, definately what I would go with (also agrees with the guide)

3)
As the game allow us to enter battles with more than one full-stack , I feel that a roman "field army" with 2 or 3 legions is neatly represented by 2 or 3 full-stacks. One can be commanded by a Praetor, the other 1 or 2 by Legates (Candel'Ult.Guide).

Exactly what I was thinking (also useful for pre-marius)

5)
1 unit = 1 Cohort = 6 centuries(80-men) = 480 men (first cohort = 5 double-cent.(160-men) = 800 men).
The default unit size of 40 makes a size ratio of 1:12. If we change the cohort unit size to 48, we get a 1:10 ratio. I think both ratios work, might be a matter of taste, but I still have to think more about this.

6)
Cavalry is reported to be 120 by this time, so unit size should be corrected to 10 at 1:12 or 12 at 1:10.

I play on huge size so 40 men becomes 160, which is 1:3. Alternatively I am considering reducing this to 120 men which is 1:4.
Cavalry would then be 40 and 30 men respectively, which is a little low for gameplay, so I might put them at 60 men

Now the hard part - Polybian legions:
<snip>
10)
Thus the roman polybian legion gets to be:
2 hastati units = 2 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 1200 hastati
2 principes units = 2 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 1200 principes
1 triarii unit = 1 x 10 centuries x 60-men = 600 triarii
and the velites:
1 velites unit = 3 x 10 maniple-attachments x 40-men = 1200 velites
plus cavalry:
1 equites unit = 300 equites
also if we use slingers funditores:
1 funditores unit = 1 x 10 maniple-attachments x 80-men = 800 funditores
The attached italian allied legion (for protecting the flanks) is a copy (but cavalry is reported to be 600-800):
1 It.Velites + 2 It.Hastati + 2 It.Principes + 1 It.Triarii + 2 It.Cavalry

I half the size (and costs) of my triarii units so I then take two units. Gives more flexibility but wastes a slot.
Theres the same number of velites as hastati (or principes) so I also put them into two units.
So thats 2x velites, 2x hastati, 2x principes, 2x triarii = 8 units.

For the allied legion, I'm going to be playing using Candelarius' mod, so I'll start off with Italian swords, spears and skirmishers (2 units of each) and then at some point I'll switch over to the proper italian infantry (~200BC?)

So for the early republic, its 8 units of romans + 6 units of italians which leaves 6 for the general, cavalry and "extras".
Mid republic becomes 8 units of romans + 8 units of italians, leaving 4 spares - legate + tribune + 2 cavalry.
Late republic is 10 cohorts (1 first) + auxillia (to be decided) + legate + tribune.

If I want funditores I will probably drop a unit of skirmishers. Cavalry probably won't be added to my legions until I can afford it - ie when I own most of italy - as the cost and upkeep are horrendous.

11)
Unit size has to be tweaked a lot.

As I'm using huge, 160 per standard unit is 1:3.75. I'm currently at the begining of a campaign with a unit size of 120 (1:5) but the units seem to suffer a lot of casualties, so I'll give it a few more turns and then try a unit size of 150 (1:4, the same as the post-marian legions).

When PE 1.7 comes out, I'll using Candelarius' Extended Realism mod (+Promethean legion skins) and then making these changes. I hope to have decided whether to use 120 or 150 men in a unit by then, plus whether to shrink the post-marian legions to 120 or leave them as they are. I was also briefly considering 0 turn recruitment, but enough people have said it unbalances the AI that I probably won't put it in. I may give it to just the romans, and rely on my self control to regulate things, but thats asking for trouble :tooth:

[ikon]

Well, i talk about default size as a point of reference. its the value 40 that is written in the scripts.

As for the number of units, I hesitated a lot between 1 or 2 velites and triari each.

Since its impossible to really model exactly the polybian legion I ended up deciding for some kind of similarity, but retaining proper total size.

When I say similarity, I mean similarity in structure...mmm... like in a fractal.

2V+2H+2P+2T makes a total of 8 units. More flexible, but also a lot of slots.... but thats not what bothers me the most... its the number 8 - This 8 comes out of nowhere!

The poly legion can be seen as a structure of 30 (maniples), or 10 (cohorts)... but 8? theres no 8 "something" anywhere.
30 unit is impossible.... I would go for 10, but even that is too much: 10 roman + 10 allied means no room for general, cav, etc

So i searched a lot for an alternative... some smaller structure giving me a patterm to follow, like a fractal (cause like tis we retain some "feeling" of the original)

And I got 5: the number of centuries inside a cohort - 2H+2P+1T - and this is the reason why I have just one Triarii unit - cause a maniple has just 1 triarii century, instead of 2 half-size centuries.

As for Velites, seems "officially" they didnt count as centuries, were just attached. So, I attach one more unit. Its not totally clear to me if divided by the 3 types of troops, or all in the front. Either way, 2 velites seemed to me like imposing a dual structure where there is none - I would either put 3 (to divide equally) or 1 (all in a big bunch). 3 take too much lots....


There you have it: those were my reasons... a bit weird and fuzzy, but they make sense to me. And yes, I'm a perfectionist: I spend too much tome with little details

And speaking of unit sizes, I decided to drop general size to 6. The idea has several aspects.
The proportionality is lost here: 1:10 or 1:12 means 60 or 72 praetorians. At huge unit sizes even more.
But I see those in real size, representing really 6 men.
Why 6?
1) Generals/Praetors had an escort of 6 lictors
2) Consuls had 12 (dictator 24), but faction heir and faction leader get extra units so I think thats taken care of.
3) Legions had 6 Tribunes. So when the unit is a tribune i consider the 6 being not the escort but 6 tribunes. The one giving the name is the most important one (politically)... well its a total of 7 men in the unit, but things cannot be always totlly perfect...
4) And at last, if we decide to look at the unit proportionally (60 or 72 praetorians for normal size), we can remember that generals usually had an escort unit of volonteer friends... about 60 of them seems like a reasonable number.

It would be nice to hear what Candel has to say about all of this.

I also thought on 0 turns recruiting - seems more realistics, as I read in a thread.
Is there a thread with the disadvantages for the AI? it only buils 1 unit per turn?

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Post 2

Take a look here Lokaar:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=60358
AI seems to cope with 0 turns recruiting, by the reports on this thread

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Post 3

The Book "Roman Legionary 58 BC-AD 69" by Ross Cowan (so this is marian legions) says the legion had a large number of slaves called "Calones" attached to it, "perhaps 120 per cohort", "some were armed and might defend the camp".

Ive read in a few sources that centuries were not exactly 100 men because the rest were in support duties, not full front line troops.

I notice that these 120 per cohort make 20 for each century. Adding that to the 80 men of the marian century totals 100 men!

This is the same math I did for polybian: Velites (that "didnt count" and were attached to centuries) together with Funditores make the total number of men in the legion be as if the centuries were 100 men.

Getteing back to marian, maybe its an interesting idea to always attach this weak aux unit to the legion.
120 per cohort, and following the math, I would say that first cohort had 200: 9x120+200=1280.
About the same size as the unit of Velites I suggested.
128 men at 1:10, 106.6 men at 1:12

1:12 ratio seems to be a problem sometimes

Lokaar, never mind I keep talking about just normal size. As I a said its just a point of reference.
Lets say playing at a different size is applying a ratio over a ratio.
First 1:10 to scale units from reality into game, giving say 40 size normal unit. Then 4:1 to scale from normal to huge making 160.
The two ratios combined (1:10 and 4:1) result in 4:10 = 1:2.5 as you said.
As the "normal" size name implies, I considered it the default game size (which seems to be).

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Post 4

This another reference source, a very good one:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...tus.html#Legion

I quote from there:
"When the number of soldiers in the legion exceeded 4000, the first three divisions were increased proportionally, but the number of the Triarii remained always the same."

Ive seen this in more sources too. Its like Triarii were undivisable. This also led me to consider triarii as a single unit, instead of two.

[ikon]

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[ikon]

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[ikon]

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[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

Whoa! Four posts in a row! You'd better hope a moderator doesn't catch you, Ikon.

Remember that legions were not always at full strength, so to play realistically you don't have to stick to the numbers too fastidiously. I don't...

[ikon]

Whoa! Four posts in a row! You'd better hope a moderator doesn't catch you, Ikon.

I just read in another thread someone saying one cannot post several times in a row - that one should edit the post... THEN I noticed the edit button (which Im using now )... sorry, Im new around here

It also said one should ask for deletion of excess of posts: do you know how do I do that? :hmmm:

Remember that legions were not always at full strength, so to play realistically you don't have to stick to the numbers too fastidiously. I don't...

You may be right saying I dont need numbers so much for the realism... maybe I'm a bit neurotic with that - I get obsessed with the realism part :wink:

[AmbrosiusAurelianus]

I just read in another thread someone saying one cannot post several times in a row - that one should edit the post... THEN I noticed the edit button (which Im using now )... sorry, Im new around here

No problem, mate. Just thought maybe you were going for a record or something! I don't know about deleting excess posts though: moderators usually seem to notice them and do it automatically.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I use 1V, 1H, 1P, 1T, 1 General for a legion. 5 units, and if I need a second legion in the same force, the second legion may have an Equites or other LCav unit instead of a General. That leaves me 10 slots to make up the 2 allied 'legions', each one consisting of 1 Skirmisher, 1 Swordsman, 2 Spearmen, and 1 Cavalry unit. And that makes up my full stack.