Mixed units (Spears,swords and axes in same unit)

[pajomife]

Could this be the first Total War have mixed units? I mean ,since the first one 15 years ago,they dont change nothing is this aspect,units are the same, it was not possible to see warband with spears, swords and axes? Do we have to use the scissors against the paper, the paper against the stone and the stone against the scissors?
Why dont made our selfs a custom unit,like mix 1/3 of spears with 2/3 of swords or the opposite? The stats would match the composition of our unity,it dont need to be to complicated ,a simple unit compositor, but it would be more plausible.

Something like this:

[Stath's]

they have already answered no to this. their answer is somewhere here in this forum.

[TsarGrey]

Q. Will there be mixed main weapon types within a unit, say barbarians fighting with swords and spears in the same unit?

A. No. Whilst historically this may have occurred we split them into different units for gameplay reasons. Spears and swords have different stats in our game so we want them to be the main weapons for different units so the use for them is clearer and the player can tailor their army make up more depending on their play style.

Jack Lusted answered here.

Edit: It seems Blackwolf beat me.

[Blackwolf]

Jack Lusted explains it here in number #3 question 2

[Abot_]

Imagine if in Shogun you were to see a unit with a front of matchlocks backed up by perimeter of yari samurai around a center of bow-carrying katana samurai.

Awesomeness.

[Cheiftan]

wouldn't that be over power in the rock paper scissers system?

[pajomife]

It couldn't be so elaborated as Abor said, a simple mix of swords and spears,with a sligth diferent stats it will be enough.

[Destraex]

It couldn't be so elaborated as Abor said, a simple mix of swords and spears,with a sligth diferent stats it will be enough.

They could have done this easily by having an over all stat for the unit that was mixed. So barbarian units would have mixed weapons and their quality would be more based of their leaders and over all quality of the men than their weapon type.

It is horrible that we have to be put through the same old dumbing down and simplification of things.
How hard is it to do what tabletop gamers have been doing for centuries??

[Eofor]

It is horrible that we have to be put through the same old dumbing down and simplification of things.

Removing all unit diversity and leaving everything to chance for the barbarian factions would "dumb down" and simplify the game a hell of a lot more than having several units that each have a defined role on the battlefield and need to cooperate with each other in order to defeat the enemy.

[Greve Af Göteborg]

It has already been discussed and confirmed months ago. This thread is unnecessary.

[Kinjo]

Yeah I'm actually really surprised this hasn't happened yet, Jack did mention maybe a German club unit might have a few axes in the mix but he wasn't sure yet. Mixed weapon units would be a nice improvement and we can finally get away from sword this spear that unless that was the weapon the entire unit carried. When medieval 3 comes out hopefully we will see mixed weapon units, I think the only hard thing would be the animations. The stats could be fairly simple for example if a unit has spears, sword, and axes in the mix you would just do the bonus by 1/3 so this units bonus vs cavalry would only be 3 instead of 9 which is what a entire unit of spears would get and so on and so forth. The pole-arm units would look pretty sexy with glaive, guisarme, and fauchard all in the same unit.

[pajomife]

@Greve Af Göteborg,they confirm it since first Shogun,they never change nothing,but one day I hope they change something in the Rock-paper-scissors system. We could expect some changes or some improvements from time to time? Unfortunately this game will not revolutionize anything.

@Kinjo Thats my point, unfortunately my english not let me be clear as you.


Even in visual effects, some soldiers could have no shield in a unit of spears or swords, someones could use a macet in units of axes etc.Some day they must made some innovations in this series, and this is a point where they could work.

[weirdoascensor]

From NTW on, and as you all can see on the Preview Pics, Now Every Person (and Horses, Possibly More Beasts) have variantmodels that assign Random Unit Parts from a Select Pool.

Would Equipments also Randomized on R2TW?

So Far at S2TW, only Bodyparts uses variantmodels; Equipments(Weaponry, Backpacks, Pouches, Scabbards, Shields, Standards) are not, All the same within a unit. This Includes the Animations of the people in it. Only Officers, Musicians, StandardBearers; which counts as a different entities attached to an unit can have different Equipments and Animations for Themselves.
Ship's Crews are attached into the ships from another table reference; and those of Seaman, Marines, Captains, Guncrews have their own different equipments and animation.
The Officers within a Unit will still shoot the same projectile used by the rest of the unit, though (For Example, Revolver-armed Officer of an Minie Rifle-Equipped Sharpshooters will also shoot at 180m range)

This Is only Graphical, Which means its just an eye-candy - All Person in a unit have similar stats no matter what equipment they appear to use


Example:
A Principes Unit throws the same Pilum, but can carry Different-Looking Shields. All Fight with Gladius, but The Gladius can be different per-person.
Or
A Warband, some uses Axes, some Clubs. All uses The Same Chopping, Hacking, Hitting, and Bludgeoning Animation.

Ah, Well why you may ask...
Let see to the preview picture one more time, shall we...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

...But All of them use Swords?
Yes...However, ALL OF THEM USE DIFFERENT SHIELD. Rectangular and Oval variant, with different Textures, 3 Texture Design each...works perhaps like Sashimono in Shogun 2, where different clan has different Mon Texture...
Remember that shields are classified as Equiments in Warscape engine, just like Weapons.

Now...why Jack Lusted said between Axes and Clubs...Rather than Sword and Hatchets or any others? Since Animation-wise they are wielded in the same fashion. Jack Lusted can say "Maybe" since THE EQUIPMENT VARIETY SYSTEM ALREADY EXISTS IN R2TW, only they are reluctant to use it further than for shield variety; to use it for weapon variety, since shared animation may look weird or awkward...Remember Shared Animation between Nodachi Sword and Tetsubo Club in S2TW?

CA will not make it effect stats, I believe...too complicated. Thats why only equipments that have similar effects will be paired.

[rrgg]

Are we at least going to see phalanx units able to swich to swords like in the first game?

[Steel*Faith]

I'm sure Phalanx units will use swords when in very close quarter combat, and when the Spear wall is penetrated. I guess we'll have to wait and see some gameplay vids before that's confirmed.

I would like to have a choice between mixed and specialist units. Too bad they couldn't allow us to separate stacks of units and mix them if we choose to. Hopefully a mod will give us mixed weaponry at some point.

[b3an15HLy]

Yea, unfortunately they won't have mixed swords/axes in the same unit but I'm really hoping that they show the animation from spear to sword for phalanxes.

[Woodrow Skillson]

Yea, unfortunately they won't have mixed swords/axes in the same unit but I'm really hoping that they show the animation from spear to sword for phalanxes.

This is in Rome 1, why would it not be in Rome 2?

[b3an15HLy]

This is in Rome 1, why would it not be in Rome 2?

Na in Rome 1 the spears would just disappear and the swords would come up, I'm just hoping for an actual animation for the transition between the two weapons.

[Strategos Autokrator]

If we already have some men in a phalanx unit switching to swords when the enemy penetrates the spear-wall, mixing sword-animations with any other animation shouldn't be a problem. It's already in the game in special scenarios. This feature is crucial.

Hannibal did this at The Battle of Zama. His first and second line was a mixture of men with different fighting techniques, supporting each other within company-size units. Even though the Romans routed the two first lines, the mercenaries did better as a mixture, than they would've as separated homogenous units. Armored swordsmen supported by spear and skirmishers, using javelins and some bows, had a devastating effect. However, roman discipline won the day and both the first and second line broke into flight. If the Numidian cavalry hadn't defected on an earlier stage in the war, Hannibal most likely would've slaughtered the Romans in an infantry vs. infantry fight at Zama when his fresh third line, consisting of a phalanx, went head on against the remnants of the exhausted first and second line of the Romans. When his first and second line took up position on the wings and prepared for double envelopment, Scipio had to stretch his line and reinforce the flanks with his third line and most of his second line to prevent this. The already exhausted hastati in the center most likely would've succumbed to the pressure of Hannibal's third line, if it was not for the returning Numidian cavalry on Scipio's side, attacking Hannibal's infantry at the rear.

[Splatterfox]

I think implementing it isn't that easy, and would mainly be able for the german or barbarian tribes, where just hundreds or thousands of people were put together with the weapon they are given.

In Roman, Spartan or other more organized armies this would be unimaginable, if at all in the auxiliary troops. But just an overall new stat with strength/weaknesses for the whole unit would be dumb as well. IF they make different equipment, the strength/weaknesses have to be calculated for every single unit. So every spearmen in the troop has a cavalry-bonus but not an overall mixed bonus for the whole battalion.