Dori and Sarrissa

[Sun Jetzu]

But seriously guys I have a question. Will the greeks have the 6 foot spear and the macedons have the huge sarrissa? Should I make a thread talking about spears?! lol

Yes, please, a discussion about what spears and sarissas will look like will be interesting and is totally essential lol

So I have made this thread at the request of Nicolaos to ask if there is going to be a difference in phalanx in Rome 2.


A Greek hoplite had the Dori (I might be wrong) as a spear. We can actually see the Spartans and Athenians in the video fight with these.




In contrast the Macedonians had the sarrissa in their phalanx. So I wanted to know if their will be sarrissa wielding units in Rome 2, and not just for Macedon but other Factions.
I was wondering this because the picture of the Macedons

seems they are also equipped with the dori.
So can someone who knows a little bit more about this time period let me know if the sarrissa is still in use at this time?

[Sun Jetzu]

keep this one

[Rebel_Caesar]

* Goes to check Wikipedia *

[Sun Jetzu]

* Goes to check Wikipedia *

please do

[Ichon]

Armies were not monolithic where every soldier used exact same equipment. Just because one picture is shown with something doesn't mean every single soldier will be portrayed that way. This is not Shogun 2 (ok, there was some variety there even!).

Sarissa would still have been used by many not just Macedon and dori or shorter spears would also still have been in use by some types of units concurrently. IE some units in same army that use sarissas other units could and did use shorter spear. Dori was a heavy hoplite weapon but soldiers would use weapons suited to their purpose so might change weight, length, etc.

[Sun Jetzu]

Armies were not monolithic where every soldier used exact same equipment. Just because one picture is shown with something doesn't mean every single soldier will be portrayed that way. This is not Shogun 2 (ok, there was some variety there even!).

So what your saying is that in a phalanx formation some would have longer spears then other or larger or smaller shields? I thought the point is to have everything equal to get the most from the units?

[Sharpe]

So what your saying is that in a phalanx formation some would have longer spears then other or larger or smaller shields? I thought the point is to have everything equal to get the most from the units?

No professional armies means no standardised equipment.

[Sun Jetzu]

No professional armies means no standardised equipment.

well that makes sense since rome was the first professional army apparently and they conquered the known world

[Sharpe]

well that makes sense since rome was the first professional army apparently and they conquered the known world

*sigh*

They didn't use the Dori or Sarrisas. They were professionalised and standardized following a series of military disasters.

The Greeks and Macedonians provided their own equipment largely - at the time of the widespread use of these weapons there was no standardisation.

[Ichon]

So what your saying is that in a phalanx formation some would have longer spears then other or larger or smaller shields? I thought the point is to have everything equal to get the most from the units?

Armies vs units. A unit would often use similar equipment especially if fighting in close ranks as that would be required so not to interfere with your shield mate. Phalanx was distinguished as a single unit several ranks deep operating in close formation. Equipment would not be identical but similar.

Different unit operating for different purpose would usually also use different equipment. As pointed out already shield bearers and other types of unit that were more mobile or fought in loose order but could still form shieldwall in close quarters would usually use a shorter spear due to mobility and loose order reasons.

[Geuvesa]

This was my response on the other thread

The Macedonian unit pictured is an Elite Shield bearer unit, these types of units fought with short spears to make them more mobile. The sarissa will be used by all the Diadochi kingdoms, so Macedon, Egypt, and Pontus confirmed so far. I won't even attempt to butcher the names of the units but Diadochi kingdoms fielded short spear wielding units that fought it looser formations, primarily on the flanks or in skirmishes to supplement the slow moving and cumbersome Sarissa Phalanx. In the faction previews on the total war site there is a picture of Egyptian natives with Sarissas

[Sun Jetzu]

This was my response on the other thread

The Macedonian unit pictured is an Elite Shield bearer unit, these types of units fought with short spears to make them more mobile. The sarissa will be used by all the Diadochi kingdoms, so Macedon, Egypt, and Pontus confirmed so far. I won't even attempt to butcher the names of the units but Diadochi kingdoms fielded short spear wielding units that fought it looser formations, primarily on the flanks or in skirmishes to supplement the slow moving and cumbersome Sarissa Phalanx. In the faction previews on the total war site there is a picture of Egyptian natives with Sarissas

these are great responses. Sorry about that the forum decided to post dup thread for some reason.

[RO Citizen]

The Macedonian soldiers pictured are Hypaspistai (Shield Bearers), a royal guard unit, which was equipped as a hoplite/heavy peltast unit rather than as a phalanx. If you look at the Egyptian faction, you will see the levy phalanx has sarrissas and keep a formation. So of course both types of Hellenic spear formations will be represented.

And btw, the Phrygian helmet was made famous by the Macedonians, so the Carthaginians "stole" it from them

[rrgg]

From the stickied Q&A thread.

Q. Rome 1 did not differentiate between the Hoplite phalanx and the Macedonian phalanx, will both formations be in the game this time round?
A. Yes both the Hoplite phalanx and Macedonian phalanx will be in the game as unit formations and will be represented differently.

[Sun Jetzu]

From the stickied Q&A thread.

and this answers my question, thank you.
1 vs 1 though, wouldnt the sarrisa beat the hoplite dori formation?

[Sharpe]

I was *trying* to answer your question regarding said weapons

I thought the point is to have everything equal to get the most from the units?

and how they were not perfectly equal as they were not standardised - often self supplied, particularly the case with the Greek Hoplite Phalanx.

But then you brought up the Romans for some reason.

[Sun Jetzu]

you talked about professional armies, and I sad that made sense why when the Romans professionalized, they had an edge on the world.
And I understood about the men having to supply their own equipment before professionalism existed.
Thank you for answering my question

[Ichon]

BTW- Romans were far from the first professional army. Assyrians and some others earlier had professional army and even Philip, Alexander's father instituted professional army to conquer Greece. Professional armies are usually superior to non professionals but the terms aren't exact. Romans used levies during the Republic supplemented with auxillaries and some mercenaries. Mercenaries would be the closest to professional early on but as Roman campaigns overseas got longer many levies ended up serving a decade or more which should probably qualify them as professionals.

[Sharpe]

BTW- Romans were far from the first professional army. Assyrians and some others earlier had professional army and even Philip, Alexander's father instituted professional army to conquer Greece. Professional armies are usually superior to non professionals but the terms aren't exact. Romans used levies during the Republic supplemented with auxillaries and some mercenaries. Mercenaries would be the closest to professional early on but as Roman campaigns overseas got longer many levies ended up serving a decade or more which should probably qualify them as professionals.

That's a whole different tin of worms.

[Sun Jetzu]

BTW- Romans were far from the first professional army. Assyrians and some others earlier had professional army and even Philip, Alexander's father instituted professional army to conquer Greece. Professional armies are usually superior to non professionals but the terms aren't exact. Romans used levies during the Republic supplemented with auxillaries and some mercenaries. Mercenaries would be the closest to professional early on but as Roman campaigns overseas got longer many levies ended up serving a decade or more which should probably qualify them as professionals.

Well now I know, I thought Romans were the first leading to their success afterward.

to OP:

dori = spear, sarissa = pike



so yes, there will be a difference between phalanx units using dori type spears, i.e. hoplites, and phalanx units using pike sarissas, i.e. phalangites.


and if the two met in battle, face-to-face, pike phalanx wins. Which is what Philip II of Macedon used to conquer Greece. That, and a combined arms approach to warfare.

I think it would be BA to use both but was making sure that the sarrissa was going to be in the game.

I feel like watching Macedonian Documentary now

I wonder if soldiers that fight with sarrisa are gonna drop their sarrissa and fight with a short sword if they lose formations. I hated it in shogun and empire that pike units wouldn't drop their weapon to take out their sword. It would vanish into them, very lame.